Halcyon Infinity for a new diver?

[sprange]

The dive shop insists I need 40lbs, whereas others have said 40lbs could be dangerous... what gives

Quoted from their email to me:

I agree that 30lbs should be adequate however shops prefer to minimize inventory. When I was diving double HP100s (no stages), I never had an issue with my old Evolve 40. Until my lower back allows otherwise I'm diving single 100 or 130s with a 30lb wing. Unlike some other divers I don't need my wing super inflated at the surface to keep me in a comfortable heads up position. The only time having a 40lb wing will be annoying for you is when you're in warm water. If you plan on doing most of your diving in Canada the stainless steel backplate makes more sense. I'm not sure the weighted STA is absolutely necessary (can you remove the weight when you don't need it?) however. In my opinion a channel weight is better (IE an XS scuba channel weight that accepts lead shot). You can add almost six pounds for local diving, and you can take your light STA down south...

Sean

EDIT---YEAH to auto-saved content

 

[danvolker]

The dive shop insists I need 40lbs, whereas others have said 40lbs could be dangerous... what gives

Quoted from their email to me:

I would bet money this is about a dive shop wanting to sell you what they have in stock, and not caring about what is good for you!!!
It's time for you to get pissed.
You do NOT need more than 30. Period....And 40 pound lift doubles wings are way to wide for single tanks to trim well, so don't let them sell you a doubles set of wings either.
I have one of the heaviest 100 cu foot HP steel tanks you can get, it's about 14-15 pounds negative in the water when full...I can use a 18 pound lift wing with it in a 3.5 mil suit, though this is poorly mated, as it does take nearly full inflation to get neutral at 100 feet down....It is exactly the right wing for use with a dry suit and this heavy tank.....The 30 pound wing has a huge reserve of lifting potential with the same very heavy tank.

I would suggest you avoid the HP 130 or 140's, and if you want a great large volume tank, go with a low pressure 120 ( which you can blow up with a hot fill to become a 170 if you need this once in a while). Weight in water will be LESS than with the hp 100 I have....

Be careful about what you allow yourself to be "sold" by this shop!!!!

 

[sprange]

The dive shop he is referring to will NOT try to sell him a doubles wing. Also, unlike Florida, getting a 'good' fill in Canada (even less likely--Quebec) on a LP 120 is impossible unless you own a compressor. You'll be LUCKY if you end up 120.

You also missed that he was planning on diving 4C waters using a wetsuit, so a steel HP 100 --may-- need a 40lb wing considering his size.

I would bet money this is about a dive shop wanting to sell you what they have in stock, and not caring about what is good for you!!!
It's time for you to get pissed.
You do NOT need more than 30. Period....And 40 pound lift doubles wings are way to wide for single tanks to trim well, so don't let them sell you a doubles set of wings either.
I have one of the heaviest 100 cu foot HP steel tanks you can get, it's about 14-15 pounds negative in the water when full...I can use a 18 pound lift wing with it in a 3.5 mil suit, though this is poorly mated, as it does take nearly full inflation to get neutral at 100 feet down....It is exactly the right wing for use with a dry suit and this heavy tank.....The 30 pound wing has a huge reserve of lifting potential with the same very heavy tank.

I would suggest you avoid the HP 130 or 140's, and if you want a great large volume tank, go with a low pressure 120 ( which you can blow up with a hot fill to become a 170 if you need this once in a while). Weight in water will be LESS than with the hp 100 I have....

Be careful about what you allow yourself to be "sold" by this shop!!!!

 

[pixelpixie]

I've only been diving for little over a year. Started with a "regular" BC and switched at the beginning of the summer to the GUE setup of the Halcyon BP & wings. I do like the system BUT....I found that there were so many changes at the same time, it really slowed the learning curve. It wasn't just the BP/wings, it was the 7' hose, getting rid of the consoles for bungees, light can, etc etc. So my point is this, if you're just thinking of changing to the BP/wings- great. If you're doing more....change things one at a time and give yourself a chance to get comfortable.

 

[rddvet]

I agree with so much of what you have to say, I hate to disagree with anything! But I have just recently learned, myself, that even diving with big double steel tanks and a steel BP and one stage - it is possible to be very close to needing weight to be able to hold a stop at the end of the of dive if one is wearing 400g undergarments and diving nitrox. I think helium may have pushed me over the edge into needing that weight! IJS!

Very true. I take for granted the thickness of undergarments that have to be worn in certain parts of the world. I'm going to keep being thankful I don't have to worry about that. I'm a cold water sissy.

 

[rddvet]

The dive shop insists I need 40lbs, whereas others have said 40lbs could be dangerous... what gives

Quoted from their email to me:

The 40lb is dangerous. That's absurd. How is a 40lb lift wing dangerous. Yeah hold the inflator you're going to soar to the surface, but the same will happen with a 30lb. I dive a 40lb wing, and we easily have 15 local divers that are rec to tecs and all have 40lb wing. I would go on the Halcyon thread and get their opinion, they'll probably tell you the 40 being dangerous is just stupid to say. They wouldn't make it if it was dangerous. They'd only have it as a doubles wing. I would venture to say that 80% of their singles wings sold are 40lb

And I respectfully beg to differ that you won't trim well in a 40lb wing in singles. I don't see that as reality at all. The doughnut wing doesn't taco or trap air like the horseshoe. I definitely haven't seen anyone with trim problems in H's 40lb wing.

 

[lv2dive]

It's my opinion that you should dive with the smallest wing that will do the job. It's easier to manage the gas in a smaller wing, it (the gas) moves around quicker - essentially, the wing feels more "responsive." Secondly, with a smaller wing, there is less drag. Once an appropriate trim position is mastered, very small things start to make a difference with gas consumption, and having even a small amount unnecessary material creating drag WILL make a difference. A huge one, no, but a noticeable one - at some point in one's diving career, I believe, yes. And there is a safety factor in that a stuck inflator hose (that someone couldn't disconnect) on a wing with 30 lbs of lift will have less propulsion than one on a wing with 40 lbs of lift. Not that I'd expect Halcyon's inflator hoses to stick

I just can't see a scenario where there is a NEED for a 40 lb wing for singles. I see all the advantages of a 30 lb wing and no advantages to a 40 lb wing. (I don't think the OP's size warrants it)

 

[rddvet]

I see your point and will just leave it at two different opinions. I agree that at some point he may notice a difference in drag. But really I don't think it's enough to be concerned with.

As far as safety factor I think that's kind of a joke. You get a truly stuck in a 30lb or a 40lb wing, either way you're rocketing to the surface. I do have a gue mentality and try to think 3 problems in advance, especially when diving in an overhead. But a stuck inflator is one of the last issues I really worry about. I don't know that there's been too many stuck inflator accidents. Especially not enough to cause concern between a 30 or 40lb wing

At the end of the day I think either is fine. Many of the divers I dive with are gue trained and of the only dive what is right mentality, and I don't think any of them would think that a 40lb wing is unneccessary or overkill, or more dangerous in a stuck inflator scenario.

Either way this has been a good discussion, and I'm glad to see another diver in some H gear.

 

[sprange]

With all this discussion you'd think we were talking about bungied dual bladder wings. There is so little difference between my Halcyon 30 and 40 pound wings I have no idea what the problem is. My Oxycheq 40 lb wing is even smaller than both Halcyon wings. Considering Francis' location (which is NOT the Southern U.S.), and size (which matters when you're offsetting a lot of neoprene if he does indeed dive dry), a 40lb wing is not overkill. I swear some people like to argue for the sake of it. Kate--if you think that the small volume of fabric that may drag due to a slightly larger wing is an issue then you aren't aware of the larger weight swings (usually positive) that people experience. Some of the guys I've been in the water with have larger stomachs than my Eclipse.

 

[FrancisK7]

With all this discussion you'd think we were talking about bungied dual bladder wings.

All this debating has actually spawned a question... I'm sure it's stupid, but does the wing actually weight 40 or 30 lbs? Or is that the weight it can move when fully inflated?