Halcyon dual bladder

[WYDT]

Wings for doubles are bigger because doubles hold more air. Air has weight and when you're talking about 280cu ft it adds up! Also most people are overweighted to begin with soo.....

I cave dive all the time and use LP 104's. With my 104's pumped to 3600 they have ~20lbs of air in them. Add my cannister light which is 3lbs negative, backup lights and all the regs and manifold and the neg weight of the tank empty and you get to about 40lbs. negative weight with full tanks. About 20lbs of that is offset by my drysuit. The lights I can drop. So with full tanks I can get to a weight that I can easily swim off the bottom without even having to use my drysuit for buoyancy.

A wetsuit should not be used with double steel tanks (in most cases) because the wetsuit will compress at depth and loose it's buoyancy causing you to have to put more air in the wing and causing the wing to kill you if you have a failure in it. Many people will compensate for this by ADDING a fix (ie, double bladder wing) when what they really should do is use lighter tanks.

Hope I'm making some sense here.

DSAO!

 

[Lost Yooper]

It kinda depends on what type of tanks and suit you're using. I use a 55lb wing for double LP 95's, and a couple AL deco bottles. I'm also using a drysuit which aids in lift, so the 55lb wing is more than I really need. I could probably get by with a 45lb wing pretty easily. Take a look at the WKPP website and count how many bottles some of those guys are swimming with (they use a 55lb single bladder).

Now, for a wetsuit diver, you wouldn't want to use overly negative tanks (steels) because you'll never be able to swim them up. It's recommended that wetsuit divers use double AL 80's (only -6lbs negative full or so compared to -24lbs for double LP104's). I suspect a 45lb wing would be plenty for a wetsuit diver using double 80's.

Halcyon has several wings to accomodate a variety of needs. All of the Pioneers are supposed to be used with singles and the Explorers with doubles. They even have a 70lb wing to be used for drysuit divers with a lot of insulation, very heavy steel doubles (LP120's), multiple deco bottles/stages, tools, etc... So, the size of the wing you need is dependant upon a lot of vaiables.

One of the biggest mistakes a lot of "tech" divers make is diving with a wetsuit, using double steels tanks, steel stages, heavy tools, and then rely on double bladders to save them . All they have to do is use double AL80's, AL stages/deco bottles, and the appropriate sized wing and be done with it. Even drysuit divers shouldn't use steel stages/deco bottles. All they are doing is adding more unnecessary negative weight and blowing their wings up like baloons to compensate the weight (pushing a lot of water, using more energy, poorer air consumption, etc).

The solutions are often very easy, but many people can't see past themselves to figure it out.

Take care,

Mike

DOH!! You beat me to it, WYDT!

 

[WYDT]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper

DOH!! You beat me to it, WYDT!

I should have waited... I like your explanation better!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by DPhantomas
Why are the wings for doubles bigger than the single ones?

The size difference also allows the physically larger doubles wing to fold up around the sides of the tanks where as the narrower singles wing would be pinched and not allowed to inflate fully.

Conversly a doubles wing on a single tank will wrap too far around the tank and stick up in the water creating drag.

The obvious solution to this is to add bungees to your Halcyon wing.



JUST KIDDING

 

[padiscubapro]

I totally agree in most cases a redundant bladder is not necessary.. most extreme dives are done with a drysuit..
but, in my opinion there are some situations..

I personally get hot on dives in warm water with my drysuit and no undergarments.. if I'm swimming I am very unconfortable in 80 degree water (low 70s is about the warmest I can stand diving dry) with my drysuit(I usually have to resort to flooding the suit). I'll try and use a 3mm wetsuit in this case.. I have done dives where twin 80s and 2 80 sidemounts weren't enough (following proper gas planning with reserve)to accomplish the task at hand, I had to use steel 104s (overfilled) with 2 - 80 sidemounts. The only real option for some type of redundant lift in this case is a second bladder. Adding extra 80s really wasn't a solution since it would have added more drag. I carry a lift bag (on all dives) for emergencies but a second bladder (no lp air attached) is a better solution. I choose a bit more complicated rig as opposed to death should a failure occur when I'm not in a drysuit.

 

[DPhantomas]

Thank you everybody, I really appreciate all your comments.

I asked the same question to Halcyon, and this is the answer I got:

Halcyon does not offer a double bladder wing since we feel that the diver needs to be able to swim their equipment to the surface in the event of a bladder failure. This can be achieved through appropriate selection of tanks and weighting. The double bladder feature of many "tech" wings attempts to solve a problem that should be avoided in the first place and adds a significant convolution to the divers equipment.

So, it's mostly about the same arguments most of you people were telling me.....on the other side, as padiscubapro said, sometimes it's better to be "SAFE" than to be "CORRECT"

Don't you think?

 

[WYDT]

Originally posted by DPhantomas
.....on the other side, as padiscubapro said, sometimes it's better to be "SAFE" than to be "CORRECT"

Don't you think?

I think you've totally missed the point! Safe or Correct?? They are NOT mutually exclusive. If you are correct with your weighting you don't need a wing at all (let alone a double bladder one) to swim up from the bottom!

I fear this whole conversation has been in vain.