Had enough from jacket...

[Doc Intrepid]

BTW.....the crotch strap is necessary.

Best,

Doc

 

[DIVESeekers Jason]

Hello maged_mmh,

i would appreciate your inputs as well as some education for the parts of the BP/W and how they're put together.

You might want to consider other manufacturers that have replaceable inner bladders. Tha value of that is if you get a hole in your wing (I have seen it happen a few times) you don't have to spend $305.00 on a brand new wing. Instead for approx $70 bucks you can get a replaceable bladder.

Here is some Dive Rite Gear as an example:
Dive Rite Venture 360 Wing

* We have a couple of last years 30lb Venture 360 Wings for $199.00 if your interested just PM me or email customerservice@diveseekers.com

Dive Rite Standard Harness

Dive Rite SS Backplate

Most BPW can be put together to ways. With standard cam straps woven through the BP or the can be put together VIA a single tank adapter.

The Halcyon Eclipse System is a Back Plate and Wing Setup (BPW) with a Convertible Single Tank Adapter (STA) that has the ability to put 6 extra pounds in it. This system does not have any quick releases (QR) on it except for the Stainless Steel waist buckle. This System does come with a MC storage pack that will store a SMB, this system also comes with a 2 inch crotch strap with a sewn loop that is slightly larger than other brands (easier to get the SS waist buckle through. As far as the Eclipse style wing, this is a 360 degree wing with replaceable inner bladder, 12 corrugated hose and 90degree elbow, 1 rear dump located on the same side as the corrugated hose.
You can choose from a 30 lb lift version or a 40 lb lift version. The 30 lb is smaller (less drag and better control of venting) Why would someone want the 40? If you are ever going to float your gear in the water without you in it, depending on your equipment configuration the 30lb wing will not keep it afloat!

Take a look at some additional photos of the Halcyon eclipse System

Considering you were looking at getting into a Knight Hawk, you might like a BPW that has some similar features like the quick release shoulder straps and chest strap. You might want to consider the Dive Rite Transplate Package

Just some ideas for you. Whatever you decide to buy, I'm sure you're going to like it better than a Jacket Style

Cheers

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hello maged_mmh,

You might want to consider other manufacturers that have replaceable inner bladders. Tha value of that is if you get a hole in your wing (I have seen it happen a few times) you don't have to spend $305.00 on a brand new wing. Instead for approx $70 bucks you can get a replaceable bladder.

Jason,

I'd suggest you do a little research before making incorrect claims.

In the unlikely event that the inner bladder of ANY DSS wing is damaged it can be replaced. Our Single wings feature 22 mil urethane bladder, and our doubles wings use 30 mil urethane bladders, the heaviest gauge bladder materials used in any wings sold today.

ALL DSS wings except the TTW17 and Super Scooter wings use a true 1050 Ballistic Nylon outer shell and a REPLACEABLE urethane inner bladder.

Some DSS bladders are field replaceable, and some are factory replaceable, but NO DSS wing with an inner bladder requires the purchase of a new wing for "$305" in the event of a damaged bladder.

Our 22 mil urethane single wing bladders are $40, not $70. There is not installation charge for any DSS factory replaced bladder.

I welcome competition, but suggesting that our wings cannot be serviced or repaired is simply false.

If you need information about our products, contact me and I'd be happy to set you straight.

Tobin

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Funny you mention the knighthawk. I have that BC, among back inflate BC's I think it's the best one.
That being said, I have mine listed for sale locally. I'm selling it to buy a Deep Sea Supply backplate/wing.
Probably a torus 35 or an LTD 30.

Call DSS.

regards,
Mitch

 

[DIVESeekers Jason]

Tobin,

Jason,

I'd suggest you do a little research before making incorrect claims.

In the unlikely event that the inner bladder of ANY DSS wing is damaged it can be replaced. Our Single wings feature 22 mil urethane bladder, and our doubles wings use 30 mil urethane bladders, the heaviest gauge bladder materials used in any wings sold today.

ALL DSS wings except the TTW17 and Super Scooter wings use a true 1050 Ballistic Nylon outer shell and a REPLACEABLE urethane inner bladder.

Some DSS bladders are field replaceable, and some are factory replaceable, but NO DSS wing with an inner bladder requires the purchase of a new wing for "$305" in the event of a damaged bladder.

Our 22 mil urethane single wing bladders are $40, not $70. There is not installation charge for any DSS factory replaced bladder.

I welcome competition, but suggesting that our wings cannot be serviced or repaired is simply false.

If you need information about our products, contact me and I'd be happy to set you straight.

Tobin

The $70 dollar replacement value for an inner bladder was an approximate cost for a Dive Rite not a DSS.

I apologize if you took this as a personal shot to your product. In my post I never reffered to your product, not once! Actually, I was reffering to the Halcyon Pioneer Wing that didn't have a replacable bladder. But since you brought it up;

Some DSS bladders are field replaceable, and some are factory replaceable, but NO DSS wing with an inner bladder requires the purchase of a new wing for "$305" in the event of a damaged bladder.

Thank you for edjucating me and the rest of SB! It appears that not all of your wings are field replaceable and that some of them need to get sent back to you which requires additional costs to the consumer for shipping.

i would appreciate your inputs as well as some education for the parts of the BP/W and how they're put together.

I was mearly giving maged_mmh more information than what was currently givin. I thought SB was a public forum where divers can help other divers learn more information.

If you don't want divers to be familiar with other products on the market then I would suggest you buy out all of the other manufacturers so you don't have to worry about it.

maged_mmh, I apologize for this brief interuption in this thread. I hope the information that I provided to you was helpful.

Cheers

 

[wreckchick]

Not to hijack the hijack, but unless I'm mistaken, Halcyon no longer manufactures the Pioneer wing and in case it really matters, although I'm sure it doesn't, I have beaten the tar out of my Halcyon wing and it has held up great.

I have also bought stuff from Tobin and found him a delight to work with and would say that anyone who decides to go with a DSS set-up will be satisfied with the both the product and the experience.

Rachel

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin,
In my post I never reffered to your product, not once!

You might want to consider other manufacturers that have replaceable inner bladders. Tha value of that is if you get a hole in your wing (I have seen it happen a few times) you don't have to spend $305.00 on a brand new wing. Instead for approx $70 bucks you can get a replaceable bladder.

So it's just a coincidence that the EXACT WING I recommended to the OP in this thread is listed at $305 on the DSS website?

Actually, I was reffering to the Halcyon Pioneer Wing that didn't have a replacable bladder.

Right, you weren't taking a cheap shot at DSS you were referring to a product from another manufacturer that has been OUT OF MANUFACTURER for several years. Gottcha.

Thank you for edjucating me and the rest of SB! It appears that not all of your wings are field replaceable and that some of them need to get sent back to you which requires additional costs to the consumer for shipping.

Almost all wings that require service end up back at the manufacturer, the field replaceable models and the factory replaceable models. Virtually no retailer stocks the required parts, many lack the required tools. Our goods are manufactured "In House" in Pasadena Ca, USA. That permits us to accomplish most repairs the same day the goods are received.

The $70 dollar replacement value for an inner bladder was an approximate cost for a Dive Rite not a DSS.

I know damn well that our 22 mil bladders are $40, vs the $70 plus that other charge for thinner urethane. Do you really think round trip shipping for a 2-3 lbs package will exceed $30? Please.

If you don't want divers to be familiar with other products on the market then I would suggest you buy out all of the other manufacturers so you don't have to worry about it.

Another false, groundless claim.

What exactly leads you to think I need divers to remain ignorant of other products?

I encourage prospective customers to become familiar with the available alternatives. I'm confident that a fully informed diver will find our offerings compelling.

I doubt that you will find anyone here that would object to you promoting the goods you sell.

There's a huge difference between that approach and yours. Starting your "presentation" with a misrepresentation of competing goods is both uncalled for and ultimately damaging to your credibility. To now make excuses and claims that you weren't slamming DSS goods only compounds your first error.

Tobin

 

[maged_mmh]

Thanks mates for your informative responses so far;
honestly, right now i'm a bit biased toward OMS products for 2 reasons:
1. in my present location - middle east; you don't get the chance to see a lot of divers with BP/W; rather, most dive jackets.. so far i frequently dive with a guy who has a OMS setup which i liked the materials and finishing of very much; but i can't really tell whether other brands/manufacturers are similar or even better, since i've seen none else.
2. multiple dump-valves.

but since i haven't made up my mind yet; i'm totally open to considering alternatives.
below are few clarifications/opinions:

I prefer to have a little better info on suit buoyancy...

3mm suit is Scubapro, i usually require 6Kg of lead when diving it with the AL80; and 4Kg when diving steel 15L

I don't have the specs on your "15L steel" but I'll assume it is about -2 lbs when empty, and about -10lbs when full.
With medium SS plate, reg and full 15L tank your rig will be about -18 lbs.
I'd recommend a Torus 26 wing. This wing provides 26 lbs of lift. That's enough to float your rig if you need to ditch it, and it is enough to compensate for a fully compressed suit.
In your 3mm & al 80 you could use a smaller wing, our Torus 17 would be more than enough, but the 17 is too small with your more buoyant suit.

actually all my tanks are rental ones; for now atleast since i move around frequently; anyhow, i think your assumption about the steel tank bouyancy is correct.

I would recommend waiting to buy your "doubles" wing until you know what you will be using for tanks and exposure suit when you move to doubles.

yeah, it will be a while till doubles come into picture.

A hogarthian harness does need a crotch strap, but it's really no big deal.

BTW.....the crotch strap is necessary.
Best,
Doc

why is it? IOW, only for hogarthian? so some setup with shoulder release will not require it??

You might want to consider other manufacturers that have replaceable inner bladders. Tha value of that is if you get a hole in your wing....

Jason,
In the unlikely event that the inner bladder of ANY DSS wing is damaged it can be replaced. Our Single wings feature 22 mil urethane bladder, and our doubles wings use 30 mil urethane bladders, the heaviest gauge bladder materials used in any wings sold today.

for my point of view, it is irrelevant to me at all to have 2 bladder desighn; 99% of today's BCDs are single bladder, never met, so far, anybody who complained about a punctured one.
if the worst is to come, as i said living in the ME; i'd rather pay shipping for brand new bladder than to go through tha hassle of sending a punctured one for repair & return.
BTW, is 22mil urethane means it is 22mm thick? (2.2cm across??)

few more question:
which is better: to have a 90deg elbow for the hose or a shoulder dump one? or is it totally a personal preference?
what is the weight of the SS back plate? aluminum one?
is the more bladder capacity better? (in other words: get the biggest, you'll be safe??)
how do you secure the D rings on the webbing?
what about over pressure valves??


now, a few thoughts that are very important to me in the selection processm, but maybe i'm wrong about a few, feel free to mention your own PoV, i'd appreciate it:
1. to have multiple dump valves.
2. i think bungee bands are nice to have on the wing, to help air venting.
3. having padding to the back plate will help protect the exp. suite.
4. the only thing i'll surely miss in my jacket style BC: is the multible pockets.
5. will i be able to use Apollo tank lock with any harness/BP? or i must use the one comes specifically for it?
6. for the harness webbing; does it require sewing (stitching), or you just web it through?? can i ask upon placing the order whomever i purchase fro m to send it prepared?
7. shoulder band are good idea to have or will they just keep sliding off place?

 

[tomboyy]

Tobin,

Thank you for edjucating me and the rest of SB! It appears that not all of your wings are field replaceable and that some of them need to get sent back to you which requires additional costs to the consumer for shipping.



I was mearly giving maged_mmh more information than what was currently givin. I thought SB was a public forum where divers can help other divers learn more information.

If you don't want divers to be familiar with other products on the market then I would suggest you buy out all of the other manufacturers so you don't have to worry about it.

Cheers

I wasn't really impressed with DSS either Jason. So I utimately bought Only the hog setup w/a ss BP and the 30lb lcd wing.

All kidding aside Jason, Tobin seems to me to be a pretty stand up guy.. He even took the time to let me talk to him on a Sunday for about 30 mins , telling me exactly what I needed. There was never the "upsale" and if fact I got a great price for the minimal set up I was looking for.

A *** for tat with Tobin will go nowhere.

 

[Peter Guy]

I'm NOT an expert, nor do I play one on TV -- I use a Back Inflate BC (Balance) in the pool but a DSS BP/W in OW -- both singles rig (DSS wing) and doubles (Deep Outdoors). Here are my very personal answers:

1. to have multiple dump valves.

I have a butt dump and a top dump (inflator/deflator hose) and honestly, have never had a reason for any more -- two is enough

2. i think bungee bands are nice to have on the wing, to help air venting.

The air pressure itself vents just fine -- when the wing is empty it "tacos" the tank(s) and is out of the way -- I have no idea why bungies would help -- the water pressure works just fine

3. having padding to the back plate will help protect the exp. suite.

I dive a 3 mm, 5 mm wet and dry, compressed neo and bag -- no problems at all. In fact, when I'm "dialed in" the plate hardly touches my back. I will admit that I did injure my wet suit this last trip when I tried to take my rig off without help and instead of getting it away from me, it slid down my back and something (a wing nut?) caught my X-shorts and pulled them down and tore a hole in the fabric. Note to self -- don't try to take doubles off without something to set them on or someone to hold them!

4. the only thing i'll surely miss in my jacket style BC: is the multible pockets.

X-shorts are your friend! They have REAL pockets!

5. will i be able to use Apollo tank lock with any harness/BP? or i must use the one comes specifically for it?

I have no idea what an Apollo tank lock is

6. for the harness webbing; does it require sewing (stitching), or you just web it through?? can i ask upon placing the order whomever i purchase fro m to send it prepared?

DSS plates come with picture instructions that even I could follow. A single piece of webbing that you thread. It wouldn't work to prethread (very well) because you need to adjust the harness to YOU and what you are wearing. It takes maybe all of 10 minutes.

7. shoulder band are good idea to have or will they just keep sliding off place?

Absolutely no need -- Even walking over a hundred meter through the jungle carrying doubles (just did it) it's just like carrying a backpack. If sized correctly, the wide straps just sit on your shoulders.

Yes, get a crotch strap too. I have a friend who got his BP/W without a crotch strap (felt he didn't need it) and it just doesn't fit as well -- especially when using an AL 80 that gets butt light at the end of the dive. Besides, what are you going to clip your spare reel to if you don't have a butt D-ring? (Or what is your scooter buddy going to hang on to when you tow him?)