"Guided" 200' dive with a single AL80?

[rainman_02]

Wow, I never thought I'd see someone justify stupid diving practices because they've also drove under the influence...

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

I'm usually pretty quiet here on SB, since there are already so many who manage to express my sentiments quite accurately.

But once in a while, I get the urge to speak for myself.
(Plus the nag screen at the top of the page bugs me)

Hello Scuba_Vixen,

it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a conversation with another member in any one of our forums?

Anyway,
I've followed this thread from the OP, and while I tend to side with the lynch mob, at least in their criticisms, what seems to be left out in the rush to the gallows is some objectivity, and examination of what gets someone to the mindset of the subject of all the ridicule.

Since I live in one of those "tourist dive destinations" with year round warm water, super visability, seldom any current worth mention, and pretty reefs with spectacular walls, I get to see how new instructors when they come to work down here can become somehow arrogant as time goes by.

Familiarity breeds contempt as the saying goes, but when you do 2 to 4 dives a day, 5 or 6 days a week, 50 or so weeks a year, the sites are all like images burned into your subconsious. You could swim each route in your sleep.

98% of the divers they guide are the typical tropical vacation diver that while being totally dependant on the instructor/DM leading the dive, also tend to look up to them and put them up on some kind of a platform. While from the instructor/dm perspective, it's a real pain to have to hand hold so many grown men and women (and in some cases their kids too), it's also quite flattering to be so looked up to for having the skills and confidence that the diver lacks.

I believe that's where instructor arrogance begins and builds from.


Now add in the number of dives a year (close to 800 or so for a working instructor) that result in no significant accidents or fatalities, and it's easy to get that "This is all a milk run" mindset, pretty much oblivious to just how much they are taking for granted each time down. With so many dives a year where nothing serious goes wrong, or where whatever went south wasn't easy enough to handle, and it's easy to get the "Nothing can go unrecoverably wrong" attitude.

Pretty much, one day is the same as the one before, only the faces have changed. ... Like it or not, ... it's pretty mundane work and some guys seem to have a need to do something that feels more exciting once in a while. ... "Hey guys, let's go down and check out that cannnon in the sand at 160'. " (or the hole in the wall at 190')

And so the little group of instructors/dms and maybe close buddies find something fun to do on their days off. As long as no one puts a video of it on youtube or blogs about it, no one knows really knows or bugs them about it.

Now while it's easy to pontificate and tell folks that "If you do that /don't do that, it'll get you killed for sure", that doesn't seem to hold up in this case.

If you look at the number of bounce dives to near 200' with al80s done in conditions like here and similar locations and look at the number of serious injuries/deaths as a result, .... and then look at the number of serious injuries and deaths diving at Gilboa ..... the deep wall dive doesn't look so ominous any more.

We need to be carefull that we don't end up looking as foolish for our knee-jerk reactions, over-generalizations, and pious pontificating as the Playa cowboy for bragging about sub-brilliant diving exploits.


flame suit on,


Darlene

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Ditto on that. My mom was murdered by some puke who CHOSEto drin k and drive. It's why I favor manadatory prison for the first incident and life for subsequent ones. If someone is killed then I consider it a capital crime. Also as an instructor not trained in deep technical diving anyone with any prudence would not risk their business, insurance coverage, and guests lives like that. No he did not twist their arm, but he also did not say "hey this dive is not suitable for the untrained and without the proper gear". That is the big thing. Every instructor I've trained with or assisted would never take untrained divers into such a risky, dangerous situation. To act as a guide on such a dive while in the employ of a shop makes it seem like the shop and agency also endorse this type of behavior. That is a serious issue and one which may get some action. This is a PADI shop who has a PADI instructor guiding untrained(for the dive, it does not matter if they are certed) divers on dives for which he himself has no training or certification.

 

[Tigerman]

Ditto on that. My mom was murdered by some puke who CHOSEto drin k and drive. It's why I favor manadatory prison for the first incident and life for subsequent ones. If someone is killed then I consider it a capital crime.
...

Im glad that here in Norway, if you are caught DUI you will go to jail if your blood alcohol level is above 0.05%. However, youre considered DUI at 0.02% and .02 - 0.049 is punished by fines.
The only thing thats a bit sad is that the jailtime for DUI is normally 21 days only.
If you hurt or kill someone DUI, you will look at years.

The maximum sentence in Norway should be mentioned to be 21 years, unless you get a special "only for you my friend" offer from the psychiatrics and they find you to not be safe to release. Then you can end up never being let back out, but thats normally not applicable unless you murder someone.

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

Ditto on that. My mom was murdered by some puke who CHOSEto drin k and drive. It's why I favor manadatory prison for the first incident and life for subsequent ones. If someone is killed then I consider it a capital crime. Also as an instructor not trained in deep technical diving anyone with any prudence would not risk their business, insurance coverage, and guests lives like that. No he did not twist their arm, but he also did not say "hey this dive is not suitable for the untrained and without the proper gear". That is the big thing. Every instructor I've trained with or assisted would never take untrained divers into such a risky, dangerous situation. To act as a guide on such a dive while in the employ of a shop makes it seem like the shop and agency also endorse this type of behavior. That is a serious issue and one which may get some action. This is a PADI shop who has a PADI instructor guiding untrained(for the dive, it does not matter if they are certed) divers on dives for which he himself has no training or certification.

Jim,

You and others have repeated the "untrained divers" and "guests" descriptors several times. I'm not at all sure that that is acccurate. I got the impression that they were a group of local dive pros (and close buddies) who have on multiple occasions, done this type of diving before, .... not that it's something the shop offers to just anyone wanting to book a dive.


Darlene

 

[Cave Diver]

Jim,

You and others have repeated the "untrained divers" and "guests" descriptors several times. I'm not at all sure that that is acccurate. I got the impression that they were a group of local dive pros (and close buddies) who have on multiple occasions, done this type of diving before, .... not that it's something the shop offers to just anyone wanting to book a dive.


Darlene

Darlene,

While I generally agree with your posts and your observation may be accurate I still think his glorified posting may give others with less training and knowledge a false sense of security to try something similar. That's the problem I see with this whole dive.

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

Darlene,

While I generally agree with your posts and your observation may be accurate I still think his glorified posting may give others with less training and knowledge a false sense of security to try something similar. That's the problem I see with this whole dive.

Now that's a spot on assesment!

And one of the things I considered when I posted about the number of 200' bounce dives that are done without incident every year in these near ideal conditions.

It really comes down to trying to answer "To what ends do we go to in a quest to protect people from themselves".

Do we censor or pillory those who speak openly about dives beyond their certifications?

Do we ban those who advocate learning to dive on your own? (no instructor/cert agency required)

Do we delete posts that point out uncomfortable truths?

Do we bash or close the thread by someone who built their own rebreather because someone else may go build one too, or there isn't any cert agency for it?

I don't have the answer, not sure if there even is one.

One thing I am sure of though, is that when it comes to protecting others from themselves, it opens up a pandora's box that isn't easy to close.


Darlene

 

[Cave Diver]

It really comes down to trying to answer "To what ends do we go to in a quest to protect people from themselves".


I don't have the answer, not sure if there even is one.

One thing I am sure of though, is that when it comes to protecting others from themselves, it opens up a pandora's box that isn't easy to close.


Darlene

I think those of us that have the training and experience have an obligation to call B.S. when they see it and point out the dangers and consequences involved with this type of diving.

Once someone has been warned of all the possible implicationts that they may not have thought through on their own, if they pee on the electric fence, they have no one to blame but themselves when they burn their (butt) off.

 

[Tigerman]

Now that's a spot on assesment!

And one of the things I considered when I posted about the number of 200' bounce dives that are done without incident every year in these near ideal conditions.

It really comes down to trying to answer "To what ends do we go to in a quest to protect people from themselves".

Do we censor or pillory those who speak openly about dives beyond their certifications?

Do we ban those who advocate learning to dive on your own? (no instructor/cert agency required)

Do we delete posts that point out uncomfortable truths?



I don't have the answer, not sure if there even is one.

One thing I am sure of though, is that when it comes to protecting others from themselves, it opens up a pandora's box that isn't easy to close.


Darlene

I think to a lot of people this isnt about protecting people against themselves, but protecting people from ideas they should not pursue.
Most people who has answered in this thread either know enough to not do this kind of diving or how to do it safe, but for the "average vacation diver" who see a video of such dives on youtube or read about them in a glorified manner on a webpage might not contemplate the risks vs rewards of this kind of dive as most people on this board..

...
Once someone has been warned of all the possible implicationts that they may not have thought through on their own, if they pee on the electric fence, they have no one to blame but themselves when they burn their (butt) off.

I dont think itll be your butt youll burn if you pee on the electric fence :rofl:

 

[Cave Diver]

I dont think itll be your butt youll burn if you pee on the electric fence :rofl:

I was trying to be TOS friendly.

Ok, I think I've enough.

My batting arm is getting tired and there's not much else left to add, so I'm done adding to it for the night.

Dive safe everyone!