GUE's stance on CCR

[PfcAJ]

I think there are about 15 guys in the world who are on these big GUE projects who legitimately need (need...) a CCR. For literally everyone else, OC or the RB80 is a better, safer, less-variable-introducing, choice. Why GUE needs to come up with a course to 'certify' those 15 guys is beyond me. At that level of diving, I think the individual and team should be capable of making decisions without guidance from an organization.

Change for the sake of change is quite suspect in my eyes, and I'm concerned that is happening in this case.

 

[Slamfire]

I fail to see the logic in owning a 2000 HP street legal car that will only carry two people and extremely limited cargo space. It's not a fair comparison since such cars are extremely wasteful and one of the prime strengths of ccrs is to recycle and greatly extend the use of consumables. But my point is that I can certainly see a similar psychological motivation making a contribution to the decision to buy one.

I also agree that the vast majority of diving can be done on oc. But if I had a CCR I would probably use it for most of my dives because I would like to build and nurture the muscle memory required to operate them competently. I understand this muscle memory can be quite different from oc (eg buoyancy control). Besides the return on your "investment" will only improve with increased use.

 

[TSandM]

AJ, although I don't presume to speak for the training council, I also got the feeling that they are acknowledging the reality of helium scarcity, and making the decision that having divers on helium is better than having them eschew it for financial reasons. I know our group's trip to Truk lagoon was viciously expensive in gas costs.

And in addition, there is the whole thing they've discovered on Mars, about the oxygenation of the water accelerating the decomposition of the wreck. Even support divers and lighting divers will have to be CCR next year, if I heard JJ correctly.

 

[PfcAJ]

I don't speak for them, either, and I'm also not married to GUE even though I support a lot of what the organization does. There are some things I REALLY don't like, but they're the best game in town regardless.

As for cost, what real savings will a CCR have over a far less complicated rb80? Will you even recoup the costs of a 10,000 dollar unit, and 2-3000 dollar course (thats just tuition)? That's a lot of diving. Now if you apply the rebreather to dives where you don't need it, then sure, you might regain the cost. But if you don't need a rebreather, wtf are you diving it? To play dress up? To stay current on the unit? If you're not diving the unit often in applications where its needed, its tough to convince me you EVER need it. Aside from all this, you introduce considerable extra risk in the form of an electronically controlled CCR.

So what does a CCR really bring to the table over the RB80? Size? Its the same. Weight? Roughly the same. Complexity? Certainly more complex. So uhh, a little gas savings? Sounds suspect to me.

Then you delve into the requirements to take the class. Just look at what people post about the subject. Some suggest tech 1 as a prerequisite. Tech 1? Come on. Once again, tough to justify a 'need' for a rebreather at the T1 level of diving. Cost? See above. Other issues? See above.

Now, for guys like Richard, Jarrod, Liam and the crew, sure. CCR. Makes some sense. Dudes doing ridiculous projects in the middle of no where? Sure, CCR. The logistics of the dives make it insane to do it on OC, and somewhat unreasonable even on a RB80 (a tough sell, once again, but I'll deal with it). Oxygenation of the water? Ok, fine, CCR. Now count how many people are involved with these things in the capacity of needing said CCR. I bet you didn't run out of fingers, and I KNOW you didn't run out of toes.

I will say that the top brass IS giving the unit a fare shake, and as far as CCRs go, it seems reasonable. I've heard good things about the pilot course thus far, and think they're really doing a good job. But trying to call it some sort of a panacea, slap a "GUE Approved" label on it, and then market it to the masses is a mistake, and I'm concerned that $$ is a driving force behind it all.

 

[nadwidny]

But if I had a CCR I would probably use it for most of my dives because I would like to build and nurture the muscle memory required to operate them competently. I understand this muscle memory can be quite different from oc (eg buoyancy control).

It's not if you don't suck as a diver in the first place.

 

[ScoobaChef]

At $400 to fill a twinset with 21/35, i would think that with regular T1 level dives, you would quickly make up the expense of a CCR.

My big question is about the learning curve required to become proficient enough to execute expedition level dives. Just going by IART's bare minimums, it's over 200 hours to progress from newbie to trimix/deco, and a huge chunk of the skills ingrained through don't transfer from OC to CC very readily.

My .02 is that if GUE wants to make RB more available, it should be a separate course progression paralleling T1-3.

 

[PfcAJ]

You still need to be good on OC before progressing to rebreather. When the RB fails, you're right back on OC. Same gas switching and bottle handling skills are needed.

Where is it $400 to fill 21/35? That's wild. But you still need to fill your bailout gas whenever you go somewhere new, so your 'savings' are diminished quite a bit when you factor that in. Even a week of wreck diving with an CCR saves maybe 4 al80s worth of gas when compared to CCR.

 

[TSandM]

Jarrod told us Friday night that there were two OC divers on the Mars project this last summer, and 19 CCR divers. The two OC folks used more gas than all 19 of the CCR divers.

 

[PfcAJ]

I believe that. Still not enough for all fingers and toes

 

[Slamfire]

It's not if you don't suck as a diver in the first place.

Roughly guesstimating, how much of your diving would you say gets done with your KISS vs OC?