Gue Vs Tdi

[lamont]

If you think I'm ignorant then why haven't you E-mailed DAN. I dare you.

you've all done a real good job representing the knowledge that GUE instills in their divers. I doubt they see it that way.

and for the record lamont, I don't care if you stay away from TDI.good for you.

nova, i'm not speaking for GUE and not basing what I say on anything which GUE has taught me.

having said that, the fact that you feel that TDI has instilled you with secret knowledge of physical processes because they've taught you the ideal gas law is a joke. now if you felt that greens functions solutions to PDEs, complex analysis or calculus of variations was difficult and that you'd accomplished something by learning them i could sympathize. if you felt that differential geometry or renormalization gauge theory were difficult i would have to agree. but the ideal gas law is just kindergarden physics. come back when you've actually learned something hard.

and i'm quite sure that TDI would want nothing to do with what you are writing in this thread and that your deficiencies are all yours. similarly my grumpiness tonight is all mine and has nothing to do with GUE. trying to drag this into an agency discussion is further evidence that you're just a troll.

 

[nova]

You still haven't convinced me that you actually understand what you're quoting.

What is the 'n' in the equation for the ideal gas law and how does it effect pressure?

your equation doesn't have anything to do with diving.

and PV=nRT, maybe I'm slow but this is a thermodynamic equation were nRT reprisents the measure of the sum of all individual molecular kinetic energy.

am I helping you with your homework? because this has nothing to do with the increase in veinious pressure do to ongassing .

 

[nova]

nova, i'm not speaking for GUE and not basing what I say on anything which GUE has taught me.

having said that, the fact that you feel that TDI has instilled you with secret knowledge of physical processes because they've taught you the ideal gas law is a joke. now if you felt that greens functions solutions to PDEs, complex analysis or calculus of variations was difficult and that you'd accomplished something by learning them i could sympathize. if you felt that differential geometry or renormalization gauge theory were difficult i would have to agree. but the ideal gas law is just kindergarden physics. come back when you've actually learned something hard.

and i'm quite sure that TDI would want nothing to do with what you are writing in this thread and that your deficiencies are all yours. similarly my grumpiness tonight is all mine and has nothing to do with GUE. trying to drag this into an agency discussion is further evidence that you're just a troll.

I wasn't the one who brought up idea gas laws . and I somehow doubt TDI would disregard their own text just to make you happy.

and for the record lamont, the increase in pressure that I'm talking about has everything to do with the way the human body offgasses on ascent.after all, if there was no increase of gas in the body , why would you need to offgas.

call me a troll all you want, at least I'm not confusing, geomitry, chemistry or cornfed thermodynamic simulation with physiological principles of diving

 

[JeffG]

your equation doesn't have anything to do with diving. and PV=nRT, maybe I'm slow but this is a thermodynamic equation were nRT reprisents the measure of the sum of all individual molecular kinetic energy.

Ideal Gas Law

Pressure x Volume = number of moles x R (universal gas constant) x Temperature

So, if Temperature and Volume are held constant the only way pressure can change is by changing the number of molecules in the gas. (moles is a measure of the molecular weight)

A difference in the concentration of molecules leads to the molecules moving to one area to another.

Pressure is the mechanism that creates the difference of concentration of gases between the body (which is in solution) and your breathing gas.


Which part has nothing to do with diving?

 

[lamont]

and for the record lamont, the increase in pressure that I'm talking about has everything to do with the way the human body offgasses on ascent.after all, if there was no increase of gas in the body , why would you need to offgas.

i agree that there's a buildup of gas in the body. but if the tissue tension was a real gas pressure (pressure = force / area) then a gradient across the dissolved tissue tension and either ambient pressure or free phase pressure in a bubble would cause a net force to exist and cause the tissues to expand or contract. if the dissolved gas was an ideal gas, with an associated pressure, then you would see the volume of the gas and the volume of the tissue expand on ascent which doesn't actually occur. the pressures, in fact, are all nearly ambient.

the problem is that you've read henry's law too literally. henry's law states that the dissolved gas concentration in the gas is proportional to the partial pressure of the free phase gas over the liquid at equilibrium. if the dissolved gas concentration is higher or lower than c=Sp then the system is not in equilibrium and the concentration gradient (NOT a pressure gradient) causes diffusion across the interface. there is no net force across the interface (assuming hydrostatic equilibrium -- which can exist at the same time as a concentration gradient) therefore there is no net pressure. its just like having two dissimilar gases diffusing across a compartment after a barrier is removed.

 

[cornfed]

your equation doesn't have anything to do with diving.

and PV=nRT, maybe I'm slow but this is a thermodynamic equation were nRT reprisents the measure of the sum of all individual molecular kinetic energy.

The quantity nRT is actually the "constant" in Boyle's law that let's you say P1V1 = P2V2.

because this has nothing to do with the increase in veinious pressure do to ongassing .

It has everything to do with it. Do you understand what happens when you transfill on tank into another? If you do, then you should understand this.

sound like your confusing Boyles law with Daltons law.but with either, the rapid pressure change can, and does, cause the formation of bubbles.

This is the first reference I found to gas laws in the thread. When you brought up the subject of gas laws I said,

Both of those are -gas- laws. They apply to gas mixtures not dissolved gases.

To which you replied,

they apply to dissolved gasses under pressure. everything about diving revolves around pressure

You're now claiming that not only where you not the one that brought up gas laws but that they don't even apply. If you're going to say that the ideal gas law does not apply then you can't say Boyle's law applies.

The irony if this is that the ideal gas law or Boyle's law don't directly apply to dissolved gas. However, Henry's law says that the concentration of dissolved gas is directly proportional the ambient pressure of that gas. So since the gas laws govern the ambient pressure they drive the concentration. In fact you could rewrite Henry's law to say, c = S * (nRT/V) because p = nRT/V.

The problem here is that I don't think you can do what I just did, that is combine the ideal gas law with Henry's law. It's clear to me that you learned enough in your classes to understand the concepts to the point that you can plan and execute dives safely. However, you don't appear to truly understand the physics to see how different concepts relate to each other or you don't have the skill or patience to effectively express your points. Either way, It doesn't matter because I'm done arguing with you on this.

 

[nova]

The quantity nRT is actually the "constant" in Boyle's law that let's you say P1V1 = P2V2.

It has everything to do with it. Do you understand what happens when you transfill on tank into another? If you do, then you should understand this.

This is the first reference I found to gas laws in the thread. When you brought up the subject of gas laws I said, To which you replied,You're now claiming that not only where you not the one that brought up gas laws but that they don't even apply. If you're going to say that the ideal gas law does not apply then you can't say Boyle's law applies.

The irony if this is that the ideal gas law or Boyle's law don't directly apply to dissolved gas. However, Henry's law says that the concentration of dissolved gas is directly proportional the ambient pressure of that gas. So since the gas laws govern the ambient pressure they drive the concentration. In fact you could rewrite Henry's law to say, c = S * (nRT/V) because p = nRT/V.

The problem here is that I don't think you can do what I just did, that is combine the ideal gas law with Henry's law. It's clear to me that you learned enough in your classes to understand the concepts to the point that you can plan and execute dives safely. However, you don't appear to truly understand the physics to see how different concepts relate to each other or you don't have the skill or patience to effectively express your points. Either way, It doesn't matter because I'm done arguing with you on this.

you still don't get it do you ?

Pressure volume relationship is known as BOYLE'S LAW or P1V1=P2V2 and this is relates ti this thread as a basis for Pt= Pgas1+Pgas2+Pgas3...Pgas(n) if the total pressure of gas is being INCREASED, then it follows that each of the individual GAS PRESSURES will also INCREASE. It doesn't matter if the gas is in your tank, lungs or circulatory system. That's the basis for what Ive posted Pressure of gas =pressure total X fraction of gas.

and it was warmwater diver that first brought up "ideal gas law" so learn to read and maybe reading comprihention will follow.

and stop calling posting PV=nRT because as you decend the pressure changes and you may have the same amount of molicules but the pressure of those molicules is higher.

and if your done arguing (again) then stop posting gas laws that only aplly to one ATA

 

[cornfed]

and if your done arguing

Oh... I forgot to mention.. *ploink*

 

[nova]

and for everyone else who thinks I don't understand the course text that I'm certified in.
quote
Chapter1 physical priniples of diving, In the TDI Nitrox course, we showed how ALL aspects of diving are controlled by one SIMPLE item, PRESSURE, for those of you who did not take the TDI course, you might want to get a copy of the manual and reveiw the information there, because it is written in plain and SIMPLE language and makes an excellent reveiw! end quote

if your training agency doesn't offer any info on the PHYSICAL and PHYSIOLOGICAL principles of diving than find one that does, because anyone can route hoses and frog kick but it's obvious not everyone understands basic principles (and basic gas laws)(I didn't say IDEAL gas laws)


I hope this puts to rest the GUE vs. TDI conflict. if everyone from one agency keeps harping about how wrong I am (even after I quote from the text various times) then their training didn't cover the substance of that text.

Maybe looking into TDI, just to see if I'm wrong, will make you a better diver


I just went through the GUE website, they have a reading list but nowhere does it say it's taught in the course. That would be another differance between GUE and TDI

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I hope this puts to rest the GUE vs. TDI conflict. if everyone from one agency keeps harping about how wrong I am (even after I quote from the text various times) then their training didn't cover the substance of that text.

Maybe looking into TDI, just to see if I'm wrong, will make you a better diver

I am fairly certain that the TDI instructors who have been following this thread are very proud to have you representing their agency ...

... can we bury what's left of this horse's carcass now?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)