GUE Fundies class report, days 1 and 2

[eelnoraa]

...First, I used tank band pockets to put some weight up high. This worked okay but I felt too tank heavy (the rig wanted to roll me over). .....

.... I've also thought about drilling a hole on each side of the backplate, then taking two 6" pieces of webbing and bolting these webbing straps, one on each side of the BP. With the webbing bolted in the center of the 6" length, I could feed the webbing ends through a weight and secure them with a triglide. Perhaps an even easier way would be to drill two holes and use heavy duty zip ties to attach weights directly to the BP.

I suggest you spend more time with your rig before making modification like this. The rig can be top heavy or unbalance from side to side, it is just the way it is. You can't make a 100% balance. You may have a canister on the right side, or maybe one day a stage bottle on the left. In time, you will know how to deal with it, and more time later, it will be so natural you don't even know it is there.

---------- Post added September 18th, 2013 at 01:23 PM ----------

As for foot heavy with wetsuit, I have the exact same issue diving wetsuit. What I did is to 1) use neutral fin when diving wet. 2) use AL plate 3) in 3mm wetsuit put weight pockets on upper cam strap. 4) if I was in flesh water (less weight needed), I will put weight pockets on should strap just above the plate. After that, it is all postrure and body position.

I don't know how heavy is Mare quadro fins. If it is negative like Jet, maybe you want to try a pair of neutral fins.

 

[mruseless]

@eelnoraa: Good advice, I'm off to the pool to work on some things. The Mares Quattros are pretty close to neutral. I'll hold off doing anything too drastic until I have a few more hours in the rig. I've also got a Cayman Aggressor trip coming up in October and I'll dive my aluminum backplate there. I have a set of weight pockets, so I'll try both the cam band and the shoulder straps and see how it feels.

 

[tracydr]

Halcyon makes a great STA with a 6lbs removable weight. You can use it with the weight for cold water diving, or take the weight out for travel.

BC System Weighting | Halcyon

Sent from my Zeagle N2ition

oops, I meant to say 4 pound plate and 6 pound STA. mine is a Halcyon.

 

[rlynch]

re: trim etc...

here is what i tell folks whom ask..

to get to proper trim in the water you need to think about the mechanics of what is going on. Most people tend to swim at a 30-45 degree angle so they can see whats going on. And when you watch them, most are very close to the bottom. In order to see well (in trim) you need to rise up in the water column.

I tell people they should think about being flat from their Knees - Nipples - Nose. Easier said than done i know..

There are two ways to achieve this (that i know...) - you can arch your back (most common and most tiring b/c your engaging your small back muscles) or you can be like Elvis and thrust your pelvis out (most comfortable and engages the big muscles in your thighs). This took me a loooong time to get through my head and start doing.

If your thrusting out your pelvis you can hold the position comfortably for a really long time and basically forces your body into the trim position which makes finning easier. As a side note re: kicks thrusting your pelvis out also helps you not drop your knees on the frog and proper flutter kicks. It's actually a Key component to master for Fundies... <IMHO>

If you need to see more.. rise up in the water column - there is no need to pivot your body to see..

On your single tank rig (and weighting). My thoughts are that your should be properly weighted (at 500 psi in your tank) at 3 feet to be neutral in the water with no air in your wing. if possible all weight should be on board (harness weight pockets or BP/W attached). Honestly the positioning is secondary. Like Aj stated it will change depending on what your carrying (Lights, stages, cameras, etc) and you need to adjust. .....and you can....

For the Rig - the most crucial bits of the harness fit are the (in order) the Crotch strap needs to be Tight and not loose at all, and the waist strap should be Tight.. I wear my shoulders relatively loose, b/c its easier to reach my valves easily when i stretch out. <disclaimer, i dive doubles and dry 90% of the time and stretch out right after decent and do a flow check, but i use the same plate and harness setup for singles>

Position of the tank (single tank) is important in that you need to always be able to reach your valve. I position mine so that the Top of the valve is 1/2" to 1" above my wing when attached. Your 1st stage should be as level with the top of the valve as possible (not inverted or some of the other ways i have seen). Just as low and stramlined as possible while being able to reach it.
<doubles setup is set the top band as close to the top curve of the tank as possible and forget after that... don't try and achieve trim using the mass of the doubles as a crutch... it will mess you up anytime you dive something other than those tanks)

If your in trim position your head will touch or almost touch the 1st stage. I dive with my head on the manifold or 1st stage most of the time. If its there and your using the water column to adjust your sight lines there is no need to "Hit" the valve with your head (also something i hear).

If your feeling like your about to go "Ass over Tea Kettle" your probably in proper trim.
If you can't see - rise up

<doubles is exactly the same, just more mass too deal with, but more stable side/side>

basically don't let the gear dive you...

 

[mruseless]

@rlynch: Interesting, I have been using mostly arching of the lower back and so has Shelley. It does get sore after a while. When I tried it laying on the floor, thrusting out of the pelvis seems similar to clenching the glutes. This seems like it would also be fatiguing, but minimizing the back soreness would be good.

I had some good results today with moving my tank up, and using weight pockets on the cam bands. Seemed less rolly than last time, not sure why, perhaps I had the pockets in a lot closer to the STA this time.

I do seem to have a much easier time holding trim when I'm looking down (nose in line with nipples, as you say) or only tilting my head back instead of arching my whole upper body up to see forward. However, my instructor was commenting that I need to keep my head up a little bit to increase my situational awareness.




---------- Post added September 18th, 2013 at 08:11 PM ----------

Also, regarding the waist and crotch strap: my torso is quite long, and in order to be able to reach the valve and the top of the BP, I have to have the shoulder straps cinched up fairly tight. This puts the waist strap almost above my belly button. Tightening it too much restricts my breathing.

 

[rlynch]

Yep - Head up (part of the <tip of> nose-nipples-knees) and basically on the valve/1st stage. Doing the Elvis puts the strain on the big muscles in your butt and thighs rather than the small of your back. Just flat.. not arched... Makes it comfortable rather than straining.


added thought... Re: Feet heavy feeling...
In most cases i've seen, there is a tendency to "lay" (or extend) out the legs. This does 2 things 1) by moving out your feet your head will rise in the water column (solving the "seeing" problem which creates the Trim problem). In essence your balance point moves the further your feet move away from vertical, pivoting your body up.
2) tends to emphasis the feet heavy feeling. Water is thick and momentum start to to take over further pivoting your body towards vertical.

I use my foot position to fine tune my attitude in the water (0-10-20 degrees-etc) by sticking my feet out (extended) or In (at my butt).

if you feel foot heavy, pull in your fins to your butt - this forces your head down and into position....this moves your mass closer to mid point. Think "balance beam" here.

My arm position when stationary is out, creating a more stable side to side loading (kinda ape man like, again if that makes sense, not straight out but out and drooped... stabilizing you like pontoons, swimming i position my arms ahead but out from my shoulders, easier to read gauges, direct the light head, and respond to OOG)

Just a thought....I would not change the fin unless its sloppy in the foot to foot pocket interface.


hope that makes sense..

<edits for clarity...>

---------- Post added September 18th, 2013 at 11:52 PM ----------

on the straps... you should ask rob c on that.. generally the waist is tight but not restricting - your crotch strap may be too tight since the waist and crotch form the basis of stability of the rig.

---------- Post added September 18th, 2013 at 11:57 PM ----------

Further note.. weight pockets on the shoulder straps will not get through GUE gear inspection. I'd ask rob your instructor before doing this so as to save the time of pulling them off..

just a thought..

 

[WhiteSands]

I've been monkeying around with my weighting, so I can stay horizontal and still. I can do this with a steel backplate and Mares Quattro fins, and 5mm wetsuit (I don't dive dry yet), but with an aluminum plate I end up a little foot heavy again. So I'm experimenting with a couple different things.

First, I used tank band pockets to put some weight up high. This worked okay but I felt too tank heavy (the rig wanted to roll me over). So I tried threading a weight belt through the upper slots on the backplate (under the STA), with a 2lb weight on each side of the centerline, and the buckle positioned on my side of the backplate right in the channel (sorry if that's a poor description, if I can figure out how to post pics I'll do so). This worked okay but slightly interferes with the backplate being perfectly flat against my back.

I've also thought about drilling a hole on each side of the backplate, then taking two 6" pieces of webbing and bolting these webbing straps, one on each side of the BP. With the webbing bolted in the center of the 6" length, I could feed the webbing ends through a weight and secure them with a triglide. Perhaps an even easier way would be to drill two holes and use heavy duty zip ties to attach weights directly to the BP.

So the question you are probably asking is why bother doing this? Why not use a weighted STA or a steel plate? My goal is to have an aluminum plate for travel, and to be able to easily add weight up high if I want to use a thicker suit or dive dry.

I know this isn't DIR, but has anyone seen anything like this done before?

Let me know if I should start a separate thread for this.

Not sure if this will work, worth checking it out though.

[h=3]Highland V Trim Weight Pouch[/h]
Tank Straps, Adapters and Weights - Dive Gear Express

 

[lv2dive]

... I'll hold off doing anything too drastic until I have a few more hours in the rig. I've also got a Cayman Aggressor trip coming up in October and I'll dive my aluminum backplate there. I have a set of weight pockets, so I'll try both the cam band and the shoulder straps and see how it feels.

I struggled quite a bit in the beginning getting to less than 30degrees of trip without feeling like I was tipping over. I remember exactly how noticeable it was to me, moving from one style of 104's to another (where the bands ended up in a different place because of the length of the neck of the tank, and the slope of the shoulder of the tank). Now, I may register that the tanks are different, and prefer what I call the "bubble style" over the "elongated style" - but it doesn't affect me in the water. THat is because I have been diving, alot, since then, and that is the best teacher - water time.

In truth, this is one of the things I like about the GUE.... I don't have to get wrapped around the axel trying to figure out kit. There is a tried and true method that is optimal for *most* situations. If I put the time/effort in, it'll work out at the end of the day. At least that has been my experience.

An added benefit is that when diving with other like-minded divers, we are on the same page, and the one thing I don't have to worry about is operating the latest fancy gizmo someone may have added to their system that really just adds unneeded complexity on a big dive when I want to focus ON THE DIVE.

THANKS FOR THE WRITEUP! Keep having fun with it!

 

[Slowrise]

Great writeup and commentary. Since going through fundies a couple of weeks ago, I'm diving steel 12L doubles and dry suit, and feel nicely in trim with steel plate, can and backup lights and no extra wheight, with some issues around ascending from about the six meter stop with near-empty tanks. I still have to learn to manage the air in the legs to avoid going feet-first to the surface...

It does feel a bit funny to consider the can light disposable weight...

 

[mruseless]

Yeah, I bet it does seem weird to consider a cannister light ditchable weight! Nothing like a $1000 ditch. But better than losing your life, of course.