GUE and smoking

[Mr.X]

While I agree with all that GUE has say about the dangers of smoking, and I am a non-smoker, I find their attitude pushy and preachy. It is none of GUE's business if someone wants to expose themselves to the dangers of cancer and emphysema. If GUE wants to take on those issues on that basis, how about junk food, McDonald's, too much red meat, Styrofoam cups, plastic containers, etc.?

On the other hand I do not prefer to dive with smokers, the acute effects of smoking compromise the smoker's ability to be an effective team member and I'd rather not have to take on the additional responsibility for someone who is physiologically impaired.

I agree with all above. It's a good idea not to smoke. However, I know some GUE certified divers who had to secretly take a small drag, or drink a tiny cup of brewskie after a dive. They'd try to do this covertly after a dive. These were guys in their 40's and decision-making professionals outside of the diving context. Pleazzzze! If anything, it all comes back to GUE leadership and their belief system - control.

X

 

[DanLVolker]

I agree with all above. It's a good idea not to smoke. However, I know some GUE certified divers who had to secretly take a small drag, or drink a tiny cup of brewskie after a dive. They'd try to do this covertly after a dive. These were guys in their 40's and decision-making professionals outside of the diving context. Pleazzzze! If anything, it all comes back to GUE leadership and their belief system - control.

X

I see this a little differently. GUE is a big step up from PADI, in that they make a person undergoe more to get a card. BUT....You don't want to pick a buddy just because he has a GUE card--at least if you have the opportunity to find out any more about the person/diver. This could be a reason to do "baby" dives with a new buddy, prior to doing a "big" dive...find out how they really are as a diver before having to really count on them being the buddy you expect them to be.

In America, people love to blame problems on other people--sue because the coffee cup should have been labeled as dangerously hot, etc. This is bogus. Each of us needs to analyze our buddy on the merits they show, and decision to have them as a buddy needs to come from us, not just because an agency says they are "safe".
GUE is a huge step, but it does not remove you from the burden of common sense.
If you see a GUE carrying diver smoking after a dive, or doing drugs, then this guy needs to be seen as a rule number 1 violation. Period.

 

[CameronMartz]

While I agree with all that GUE has say about the dangers of smoking, and I am a non-smoker, I find their attitude pushy and preachy. It is none of GUE's business if someone wants to expose themselves to the dangers of cancer and emphysema. If GUE wants to take on those issues on that basis, how about junk food, McDonald's, too much red meat, Styrofoam cups, plastic containers, etc.?

On the other hand I do not prefer to dive with smokers, the acute effects of smoking compromise the smoker's ability to be an effective team member and I'd rather not have to take on the additional responsibility for someone who is physiologically impaired.

While GUE promotes a healthy diver in a holistic way (yes, your health on the surface is important, too), it is the second paragraph above that accurately describes the reason for the rule. This is not something that you can do on your own time without it affecting you at dive time.

Cameron

 

[CameronMartz]

If anything, it all comes back to GUE leadership and their belief system - control.

X

I couldn't agree with you more, though you are mistaken if you think anyone is trying to control *people*. Such conspiracy theories would be better received at the "X Files" fan club forum. <g>

Controlling *risk*, on the other hand, is the whole reason for dive training from any agency.

Cameron

 

[Mr.X]

I see this a little differently. GUE is a big step up from PADI, in that they make a person undergoe more to get a card. BUT....You don't want to pick a buddy just because he has a GUE card--at least if you have the opportunity to find out any more about the person/diver. This could be a reason to do "baby" dives with a new buddy, prior to doing a "big" dive...find out how they really are as a diver before having to really count on them being the buddy you expect them to be.

In America, people love to blame problems on other people--sue because the coffee cup should have been labeled as dangerously hot, etc. This is bogus. Each of us needs to analyze our buddy on the merits they show, and decision to have them as a buddy needs to come from us, not just because an agency says they are "safe".
GUE is a huge step, but it does not remove you from the burden of common sense.
If you see a GUE carrying diver smoking after a dive, or doing drugs, then this guy needs to be seen as a rule number 1 violation. Period.

Lock step adherence certainly has it's merits & faults. Lack of thinking being a huge deficit. However, recreational diving isn't the military. On the technical side, maintaining some level of above average health & following rules is prudent. However, people will be people and will need to express themselves in ways outside of the context of GUE rules. I'm sure you've seen examples before. Some behaviors may have even resulted in expulsion from said organization. My feeling is that "closet" bad behavior exists and that the level of this "off" behavior is no biggie as long as it doesn't affect a team. Then again, no knows enough about anyone to state categorically what they do behind closed doors.

Irvine, while being a excellent diver is certainly no choir boy.

X

 

[Mr.X]

I couldn't agree with you more, though you are mistaken if you think anyone is trying to control *people*. Such conspiracy theories would be better received at the "X Files" fan club forum. <g>

Controlling *risk*, on the other hand, is the whole reason for dive training from any agency.

Cameron

Agree completely. I have some experiences that aren't necessarily related to the control of risk factor...politics.

BTW - your book great. It's what every diver, and especially entering tech diver should read!

X

 

[DanLVolker]

Lock step adherence certainly has it's merits & faults. Lack of thinking being a huge deficit. However, recreational diving isn't the military. On the technical side, maintaining some level of above average health & following rules is prudent. However, people will be people and will need to express themselves in ways outside of the context of GUE rules. I'm sure you've seen examples before. Some behaviors may have even resulted in expulsion from said organization. My feeling is that "closet" bad behavior exists and that the level of this "off" behavior is no biggie as long as it doesn't affect a team. Then again, no knows enough about anyone to state categorically what they do behind closed doors.

Irvine, while being a excellent diver is certainly no choir boy.

X

My posts on this are really in the context of doing DIR dives....serious adventure dives that are exciting and challenging. However, as several posters have suggested, there is the recreational side of diving also--a kind of dive where there are no real currents, the viz is 80 feet to 100, the depth is 60 feet, and a person would really have to try to have a serious problem, in order to successfully injure themsellves ...For the typical PADI profile and challenge of dive, DIR mindsets are still nice to have, but I agree it can get in the way of practical enjoyment of diving with people you like.
I know, and dive recreational dives ,with people who are not DIR, because I like them, and since these dives are simple recreational dives, I am not going to sweat the breaking a few DIR commandments...still, the non-dir divers I dive with have good basic skills, and would be seen by most people to be good divers...just not DIR divers.
I even know one instructor ( NAUI I think) who has exceptionally good dive skils, but he is a smoker. The dives he does are just normal recreational dives, and he is in the water with me, while not specifically my buddy ( he is someone else's buddy). Certainly he knows better, but he has been diving for 35 years or more, has maintained higher than average fitness for an American, and he stays in conservative profiles. Regardless of my militant anti-smoker attitudes, this guy is a friend, and I know he has been a good instructor to thousands of recreational divers for several decades. If we are talking about the baby dives common to the Florida Keys, or most recreational charter boat dives, I would discuss DIR as a background ideology for common sense decisions, but rigid adherance would be kind of silly.
If you are talking about divers that are going to do the 140ft for 25 minutes, or bigger profiles, and doing this in 3 mph currents, and then some, I'd say real DIR adherance needs to be taken seriously. And, for people doing real tech, or cave, again, we have DIR guidlines for this, and they make sense for this.
Dan Volker

 

[docmartin]

i feel this thread is straying from the original question. i don't think there is any disagreement that smoking is no good and obviously you can choose to dive only with non-smokers, non-drinkers... The issue was if GUE pulls your card for smoking and how they go about it and I would add if they pull it for smoking shouldn't they pull it for other unhealthy behaviours that affect dive safety (obesity, lack of cardiovascular fitness) and that arise after a diver earned their GUR card?

 

[wreckchick]

Somebody please find me the research that shows that smokers are an inherent risk to a dive team, or that the incidence of DCS is higher, or the risk of medical emergencies underwater are higher, or that SAC rates are higher...

Please, anyone give me some data instead of the theory as to why it 'should' be bad. I claim you can't find it, prove me wrong.

Rachel

 

[Thalassamania]

I'll give that old cop-out of not quite anecdotal evidence. A new pulmonary function lab was installed at the university. They started doing the tests for our diving physicals. Back then I was a rather casual smoker, a pack a week or so. I did my test for my physical and then had a cigarette and did it again. My second test was 60% of my first. I stopped smoking completely.