Green PSI VIP Sticker

[fdog]

I understand what you're asking, I think.

There's a concept of cumulative contamination. If you do a lot of fills on a particular cylinder, even with really clean equipment and procedures, there is still an inevitable contamination that will eventually build up to unacceptable levels. So, if a particular cylinder is getting lots and lots of fills, I may (and have done) oxygen clean it more often than annually.

On the other hand, if I have even a doubt that a cylinder has been exposed to unclean gas, I'll clean it.

Either way, I'm not willing to make the assumption that a cylinder is always O2 clean simply because it's only been to a shop that has O2 clean air and gas. I'll clean at least annually, or more often.

The problem is that there's no absolute numbers you can hang on a cylinder..."200 fills and an O2 cleaning", for example. So the fallback is an annual O2 cleaning.

Hope this helps.


All the best, James

 

[fdog]

I should pass this on, too.

The person that this happened to works for me. Fortunately he made a complete recovery, if he hadn't had such good reactions he would had been burned much worse.

This particular firefighter went out to the rig one morning, pulled out the medical bag, and turned on the O2 to check the pressure. Pure routine and something we've all done almost a thousand times, except in this particular case, the regulator was contaminated, and the regulator and cylinder began burning.

"Burning" is a word that just doesn't convey the magnitude of the event. When he tells the story, he says that instantly, as he turned on the cylinder, every opening - where the gauge was, the O2 outlet, the overpressure port, the flow setting dial - all instantly began shooting out 3' long pressurized tongues of flame that were white hot. And burning him, since he was holding the cylinder, and setting his clothes on fire.

He threw the cylinder away from himself, and ran back into the apparatus bay, all the way (as he describes it) "screaming like a little girl" for the rest of the crew to put the fire on him out. The cylinder continued burning until it was empty.

Needless to say, I think of this often when doing PP blending.



All the best, James

 

[Topbodz]

A partial pressure fill is when your tanks are filled partially with O2 to a predetermined psi depending on the mix requested, then air is added for the finale mix. Membrane fills are a premix gas, usually 32% or 36% that is banked.

If your tanks are O2 cleaned and you frequent a reputable shop that uses O2 and quality air for a partial pressure fill your tanks are never contamined.

As far as a hydro test the water used comes from a hose then pressurized air is blow in. There are no hydrocarbons in water.

What seems to be the problem is some shops are not educated on PSI stickers. PSI does not make O2 clean stickers. The green sticker reads" SUITABLE FOR ENRICHED AIR" and has a record stating they were O2 cleaned by PSI. Anyway, if your tanks were previously O2 cleaned by another shop with their sticker, a year later same tanks are then taken to a PSI certified guy, he takes your O2 sticker off and puts a green psi sticker on. I have never had a problem getting my stages filled with 100% O2 with a green sticker. so it boils down to new shops that are not educated in PSI. Don't use a shop that will not put a PSI or an O2 sticker back on. Thanks for the help an opinions, but the question may be on the wrong forun. I could be wrong but judgeing from Topadz replie I don't think he is PSI certified. Hope I comunicated this correctly. I just thought thought some one really knows what
the story is.

Well you ARE wrong! I am o2 Certified by PSI. and even if a sticker say "SUITABLE FOR ENRICHED AIR" it does NOT mean tht you can pump pure o2 into that cylinder. When PP filling, they are putting PURE OXYGEN in the cylinder. As such there should be some stated indication that that cylinder was cleaned for o2 Service, not enriched air which can be anywhere from 23% to 99%. My stickers are like many most stickers that indicate 1 of 2 conditions: 1) the cylinder is suitable for PREMIX Nitrox (any old cylinder can have Premix, using the industry's 40% rule) 2) the cylinder & valve have been cleaned in accordance with o2 service. I my opinion, just a green sticker that says "SUITABLE FOR ENRICHED AIR" is no more of an o2 service indication than a tank that has a green "Nitro only" valve cap, & an "Enriched Air" band on it... O2 clean status is not something you should be vague about, as you are putting fill station operators at risk. (I know you won't be there while they are filling your cylinder). To that extent, I'm not putting an o2 sticker on a tank unless 1) I cleaned it myself, or 2) there is a sticker from a reputable shop WITH their PSI cert number on the sticker (I forgot to mention that the PSI sticker I saw didn't even have a PSI number on it) that SPECIFICALLY states that the cylinder & valve were cleaned for o2 service.

 

[bkbomb123]

Originally Posted by bkbomb123

PSI does not make O2 clean stickers. The green sticker reads" SUITABLE FOR ENRICHED AIR" and has a record stating they were O2 cleaned by PSI.

Scared Silly is the man, He is obviously in the dive bussiness an not assuming. Part of his post is below.



True, PSI follows OSHA standards which means that enriched air is anything over 23.5% and thus the cylinder is clean to be O2 compatible.

 

[bkbomb123]

James,Thanks for info.

 

[Topbodz]

Originally Posted by bkbomb123

PSI does not make O2 clean stickers. The green sticker reads" SUITABLE FOR ENRICHED AIR" and has a record stating they were O2 cleaned by PSI.

Scared Silly is the man, He is obviously in the dive bussiness an not assuming. Part of his post is below.



True, PSI follows OSHA standards which means that enriched air is anything over 23.5% and thus the cylinder is clean to be O2 compatible.

would you post a picture of the green sticker so we can see wht it says... I just went on their website but even the large piture of their green stickers is not legible...

Anyway because many shops use the 40% rule all nitrox stickers should indicate whether the cylinder is suitable for Premix "up to 40%" or for o2 service "up to 100%"

see how luxfer regards o2 service, see question 4, but read the whole thing - good education

XS Scuba Luxfer Oxygen-Enriched and Oxygen Serivce FAQ

 

[bkbomb123]

would you post a picture of the green sticker so we can see wht it says... I just went on their website but even the large piture of their green stickers is not legible...

Anyway because many shops use the 40% rule all nitrox stickers should indicate whether the cylinder is suitable for Premix "up to 40%" or for o2 service "up to 100%"

see how luxfer regards o2 service, see question 4, but read the whole thing - good education

XS Scuba Luxfer Oxygen-Enriched and Oxygen Serivce FAQ

I see what you mean, I took a look at PSI site too and can't make heads or tales out of the sticker. Look at there O2 cleaning form for their standards, you can make them out. I'm assuming if they are met a green sticker is applied. Sorry, the green sticker was taken off by the dive shop for a new VIP. Anyway,thanks for the link but what else is new in the dive industry or any other regarding standards and procedures, for there all canibalized to meet their criteria.

 

[grf88]

The current green PSI sticker has a punchout for Oxygen Cleaned Yes/No.

 

[Scared Silly]

1) the cylinder is suitable for PREMIX Nitrox (any old cylinder can have Premix, using the industry's 40% rule)

Baloney, a case of the scuba industry making up their own rules.

would you post a picture of the green sticker so we can see wht it says... I just went on their website but even the large piture of their green stickers is not legible...

Anyway because many shops use the 40% rule all nitrox stickers should indicate whether the cylinder is suitable for Premix "up to 40%" or for o2 service "up to 100%"

see how luxfer regards o2 service, see question 4, but read the whole thing - good education

XS Scuba Luxfer Oxygen-Enriched and Oxygen Serivce FAQ

You should reread what Luxfer has posted especially point #4.

Shops using at 40% rule premix without any O2 compatibility is baloney from an OSHA point of view. If a cylinder is going to be filled with anything over 23.5% O2 by OSHA rules it must be O2 compatible. No if and or buts about it (well unless you are a commercial diver then you can do it, but it does not apply to the recreational scuba industry). Now OSHA rules are not law per say but again if there is an accident the shop is screwed.

Now here is the problem, the scuba industry making up their own rules. Like if a VIP sticker says "Enriched Air Compatible" then it mean premix is okay but not PP or higher percentages otherwise it needs to say O2 compatible. No the rule is anything over 23.5% must be O2 compatible.

Not do get me wrong, there is practical point and an industry/government standard point. I just had this conversation with Mark Gresham at PSI, why not air, premix, O2? Certainly possible but until OSHA and CGA rules get changed forget it. Because that is what insurance companies are going to go by.

Also from a practical point given the scuba industry standard when it comes to VIP - I would not be filling any cylinder with pure O2 unless I knew the person. So even though I know a sticker that says "enriched air compatible" should be O2 I aint going to trust it unless I inspect it.

 

[SDAnderson]

<snip>My experience tells me this is a very dangerous assumption. All it takes is one breakthrough incident. Or someone with greasy hands changing the fill whips (or) the whips on the T's of O2.

James, if that were true you would would have to have your tanks O2 cleaned after every fill. Anything is possible but not probable, what you are assuming is that people doing fills are idiots and not self preservation
minded



<If I put an O2 clean sticker on a cylinder, it means I actually O2 cleaned it, and I'm not taking it on faith that it's still clean enough to flow 100% O2 into.>

So, if someone comes into your shop for a VIP with a O2 clean sticker on his tank your going to charge this guy to O2 clean it again on the assumtion some dive shop filled his tank with oxygen and had grease on their hands. I'm not trying to be flippant, but can't follow the logic. I have read the O2 hand book and ANSI for gas equiptment, also taught gas welding, not that it matters but am some what familar with the behavior of gases.

You're overcomplicating things: each fill station gets to set their own standards. If you fill your own bottles, you decide when you need to oxygen clean. If I fill for you, I get to set the rules. Speaking only for myself, I'm just not willing to take much risk to support your diving, thus oxygen servicing both the valve and cylinder after each hydro is a minimum requirement. Sounds like its time for you to invest in your own fill station.