Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[SPG3K]

Disclaimer: I am only a Padi SCUBA Diver at this point. Soon to be OW. <2 weeks.

My instructor dove all of our pool dives in a Zeagle Ranger. I did all of mine in my Sherwood Avid.

Before I even thought about getting in a pool for certification purposes, I tried a few BCD's that friends of mine had in personal pools. I absolutely HATED the BP/W setups, that were, in fact, all properly sized. For whatever reason, the jacket style BCD's just seem to fit me better, and feel better when I wear them.

BP/W's could be the best gear possible to dive in, period. But that still doesn't change the fact that I don't feel comfortable in the way that the device fits me. Therefore I won't dive in it.

I'm really new here, but this seems like a giant debate over personal preference.

If your working for your shop, you sell the shops gear, thats a pretty fundamental principle. No car dealership is going to hire you to sell Honda's while you showoff your Maserati or Toyota in the back lot. Regardless of how much better it might be.

And you are expecting me to believe that after all your years of diving (OP) that you can't put on whatever gear fits and dive properly? I think your argument of "not comofortable in the BCD" which means you can't "focus" on the students is ridiculous. I'm not trying to personally attack you, but thats a weak argument.

Thats like a 20 year automotive mechanic vet trying to convince me he has to use Kobalt tools on my car or else he won't feel the car was fixed properly. Please.

If it was someone like me making the argument, I would believe it. But anyone who has posted in this thread, I guarantee you - could put on whatever gear the LDS had at the moment and be back to perfectly buoyant in 5 minutes underwater, regardless of trim weights. My instructor didn't even remember to bring his trim weights for his Ranger and he had no issues hovering wherever he wanted and swimming backwards.

Suffice to say - your current shop owner wants you in a BCD. Wear it. If students ask your honest opinion, let them know discretely. Have them request your shop owner to ORDER a BP/W Setup for them.

 

[ClayJar]

I will expect to use my own equipment in the open water sessions and doubt that any student would even notice.

Hehe, for some reason they notice when I'm diving my own equipment. Perhaps it's the shiny backplate... On second thought, it's probably the bright pink webbing that gives it away.

I certainly have my gear configured in such a way as to virtually *demand* to be noticed. During the dives, it makes it *trivially* easy for my divers to know without question at least one person they can stay near or go to with problems. Better yet, on the surface intervals, the *obviously* different gear opens the door to plenty of conversations. (The pink catches your eye, and then when you look more closely, you notice how different it is than the jackets you've been using. Natural curiosity takes over from there.)

I don't mind at all diving a wetsuit, jacket BC, et al, with students to make their first steps straightforward. Using one standard is convenient, just like training wheels on a bike. Problems only arise when someone gets the idea in their head that since training wheels make things easier in the beginning, they are by definition a good thing that should then be kept forever.

(The philosophical disconnect seems to be the classic how-vs.-why problem. If you're only teaching how to use a specific gear configuration, diving anything else around the students would be a bad thing. On the other hand, if you're really just teaching how to use a specific gear configuration to give a baseline from which to approach the whys, then once you know the basics of buoyancy management and such, introducing other examples can only be a good thing.)

 

[Ann Marie]

Is the shop paying you wages or are you volunteering your services? I look at it from a "uniform" standpoint. If they are paying you, wear the uniform. If you are volunteering tell them that if they want you then they should just be happy to see your bright and shinny face, no matter the gear (as long as it is safe).

Where I teach, dive professionals are required to wear "in-line" equipment to be paid employees. No problem for me as I love my set up and dive with it while working or not. I have a BP/W (DSS) but I prefer my back-inflation BC. (I don't get the argument about trim as you can either trim yourself out or not, no matter what you are wearing, but that's another thread).

I do bring in my BP&W during the first workshop (not orientation) because that is when we talk about BCs. I use it as a training aid. We discuss jacket, back inflation, and bp/w BCs. Benefits and features are discussed as well as what might be appropriate for each individual. We do this with all gear.

My snorkel is always in a pocket unless I am demonstrating a skill with it. We discuss the whole snorkel vs. no snorkel in class. We also discuss the MOF vs. NMOF. During pool sessions if I see a student put their mask on the forehead, I ask them if they meant to put it there and let them decide. I share with them the reasons not to, and if they loose it in the ocean I know where they can buy a new one. I don't do the 'you owe me a beer' BS as these are the easy decisions and they need to be responsible for making their own. I am responsible for making sure that they have the information to make a informed decision. I just give them the facts and I share my opinion. I do make it clear that my opinion is just that, my opinion, not a fact.

 

[friscuba]

Back in the day, when you went to get a job or help out at Joe's Garage, he handed you some coveralls that said "Joe's Garage" on them and you put 'em on and started working. Nowadays it seems that people are so into name branding that they'll scream if Joe wants them to take off their Nike jacket and act like part of the team.

When did helping out become "I'll help out if you let me do my own thing"?

I say, if you want to help out, do it in the way that's asked, or don't bother.

 

[SlowRain]

Well this whole thing has been beat to death already and I probably won't say anything that hasn't been thrown out already. Let's maybe look at this as an opportunity instead of an issue.

I do understand the whole "dive what the shop sells" mentality. When I did my instructor training, I was diving ScubaPro regs and BC. The shop sold Poseidon and Dacor (this was a while back ). While the owners never said "you have to dive what we sell", you would have to have been blind to see that they were okay with it. So I asked "if you want me to dive what the shop sells, would you mind if I used rental equipment to teach in?" They were thrilled. I didn't have heartburn over it because I thought it was important that students could see that the skills could be accomplished using the same equipment that they were wearing. In the end I actually switched to diving Poseidon regs because I actually liked them better than the SP's I owned. (Sorry SP fanatics...just my opinion).

While maybe there is one out there somewhere, but I have yet to see a shop running basic open water training with BP/W setups. Most teach in jackets because as someone else said...most divers never buy their own gear, instead they are getting their certification to head down to the warmer waters for single tank dives to see the scenery and fish. There is nothing wrong with that....and no one is "less" for only doing that....hey...they are diving...be grateful. A small percentage of those will continue their education and become more serious about the sport...buying their own gear, taking some advanced classes, etc. Still a smaller percentage get semi-fanatical (like 90% of the membership of this board) and buy progressively better equipment, become DM/DiveCon's, instructors, go tech, go cave...etc. Remember folks...THAT IS THE MINORITY.

Jackets are easier to teach because there is a comfort zone around putting air in something that feels a lot like a lifejacket and floats us with our head up and out of the water. Remember most people that go through this are nervous to begin with. As experienced divers we know that you end up face down with a BP/W because you don't have your weights/trim right, and/or you have too much air in the wing...most new divers don't think in those terms. They initially stuff as much air as is possible into the bladder at the surface. For a new diver...I think the jacket style is perfectly fine to learn in. I am not going to debate the whole BP/W vs. "others". I dive a BP/W. Maybe it is a case of "first learn crawl, then learn fly".

I was in a shop about 3 weeks ago that I had never been in, and it is pretty decent in terms of size and stock. When I walked in the door I saw what I expected....all the "usual suspects" from a variety of jackets, regulators, wetsuits, watches, all the way to stuff that is usually sold to the unsuspecting i.e. tank bangers. But as I got further into the store they had a couple of BP/W setups and a limited inventory of tech gear....reels by DiveRite, OMS, some decent liftbags, etc. I was standing there and the owner came up and introduced himself. I expressed a bit of surprise that he had this stuff in stock and his response was pretty good. "I would rather have some of it here and be able to sell it to advanced divers who are looking for those kinds of things, than let them wander somewhere else to buy it." He said his investment into stock was fairly minimal, and he had enough people asking about it and subsequently buying it or ordering other things that he didn't stock that he has easily made his return on investment and actually was expanding his inventory a bit. This is a PADI shop by the way.

What I really thought was a nice push was that he was having his instructors and DM's that were involved in advanced classes wear BP/W if they wanted. It was a way of setting up sales for those items to divers who had not yet invested in equipment or maybe were divers who were "going back to school" after having dove for a while. Ta Da....got that stuff in stock guys. Nice way to turn an opportunity I thought.

Maybe suggest that the shop buy a BP/W setup. It isn't like they are investing a fortune here...it would be a great training aid for class and maybe even would turn into a selling feature. Maybe I am being to simplistic...but if you are selling jackets, what is the issue with also having and offering BP/W setups? At the very least you are offering students the chance to see a bit more in terms of options.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Perhaps this will peeve somebody, but I think it has to be said. I am not trying to single anyone out here, just putting a thought out.

If you are a diver, by all means dive what you want, for whatever reasons you want. If you think you can only achieve trim and lose the danglies with a bp/w then that is your gear.

But if you are a DM, AI or Instructor working with students, and cannot dive any normal gear configuration safely and comfortably then maybe you need to rethink your decision to be a dive leader.

If your personal gear is a BP/W and you just can't feel safe or trim or whatever in a jacket BCD, IMHO you are not a good enough diver to be assisting students and perhaps performing a rescue.

Unless you are being told you have to BUY different gear to teach in, who cares? If the LDS is giving you the stuff just wear it...

I think some of you are missing the point.

Peter's a very capable diver. I think he could hold trim using a rope harness and a couple of bleach bottles ... if that's what he wanted to do.

The issue isn't whether or not he's capable of diving in the alternate gear ... it's ...

a) The "rules" were one thing during training, and something different after training was completed ... it feels a bit like "bait and switch".

b) He's being told to "not worry about" showing exemplary skills during class ... I thought that the whole point of dive leadership was to define and demonstrate the parameters of good diving practices.

As I said ... I can see both sides of the gear issue. But I think that's really a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself in this case ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

While maybe there is one out there somewhere, but I have yet to see a shop running basic open water training with BP/W setups. Most teach in jackets because as someone else said...most divers never buy their own gear, instead they are getting their certification to head down to the warmer waters for single tank dives to see the scenery and fish. There is nothing wrong with that....and no one is "less" for only doing that....hey...they are diving...be grateful. A small percentage of those will continue their education and become more serious about the sport...buying their own gear, taking some advanced classes, etc. Still a smaller percentage get semi-fanatical (like 90% of the membership of this board) and buy progressively better equipment, become DM/DiveCon's, instructors, go tech, go cave...etc. Remember folks...THAT IS THE MINORITY.

I think a lot of this is regional. Where I teach ... which is also where Peter lives ... the vast majority of people who dive own their own gear. The reasons are because diving is very accessible here, and because the water's cold it's very gear intensive. Renting gear on a regular basis becomes cost-prohibitive after a while, and financially if you're going to dive more than a few times a year it just makes sense to invest in your own gear.

There's also this ... backplates are quite popular here. Again, in part because of the cold water, getting 6 to 12 lbs off your weightbelt and onto your back is attractive to a lot of divers ... even recreational divers. Among those who don't use backplates, back-inflate BCDs are quite popular. In fact, I'd say the Zeagle Ranger is probably the #1 most popular BCD out here ... because that's what the largest LDS chain sells. Jacket style BCDs are not as common here as they are in a lot of other places.

There is at least one shop that teaches OW in BP/W, and more than one who will rent them.

It is not at all uncommon to see people diving ... at a recreational level ... in backplates and back-inflate BCDs. If anything, I think some people tend to "overdress" for the occasion. Less common, but far from rare are people diving doubles for recreational diving. Far less common, but growing, are those who are diving rebreathers at a recreational level.

Part of the difficulty in conversations like this one is that we each can only relate from the perspective of the conditions prevalent where we dive. Those conditions vary wildly from place to place around the world ... as do the attitudes and habits of the people diving in those various locations.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Gombessa]

For a lot of reasons, I would have been "confused" by different gear setup while in OW class, but I'm pretty sure I would have taken the word of the DM/instructor/shopowner as to what would work best for me.

I'm not too offended by shops "requiring" DMs use their gear. Some businesses have dress codes, some don't.

 

[SlowRain]

I think a lot of this is regional. Where I teach ... which is also where Peter lives ... the vast majority of people who dive own their own gear. The reasons are because diving is very accessible here, and because the water's cold it's very gear intensive. Renting gear on a regular basis becomes cost-prohibitive after a while, and financially if you're going to dive more than a few times a year it just makes sense to invest in your own gear.

There's also this ... backplates are quite popular here. Again, in part because of the cold water, getting 6 to 12 lbs off your weightbelt and onto your back is attractive to a lot of divers ... even recreational divers. Among those who don't use backplates, back-inflate BCDs are quite popular. In fact, I'd say the Zeagle Ranger is probably the #1 most popular BCD out here ... because that's what the largest LDS chain sells. Jacket style BCDs are not as common here as they are in a lot of other places.

There is at least one shop that teaches OW in BP/W, and more than one who will rent them.

It is not at all uncommon to see people diving ... at a recreational level ... in backplates and back-inflate BCDs. If anything, I think some people tend to "overdress" for the occasion. Less common, but far from rare are people diving doubles for recreational diving. Far less common, but growing, are those who are diving rebreathers at a recreational level.

Part of the difficulty in conversations like this one is that we each can only relate from the perspective of the conditions prevalent where we dive. Those conditions vary wildly from place to place around the world ... as do the attitudes and habits of the people diving in those various locations.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Understand...and if you have a shop/area where that is the case then the local market dictates the needs and subsequent supply to the market. I guess my statement was a bit more generic in that of the roughly 200 that I certified in Basic...about 30% came back for additional training...and of those maybe 5% went on to become DiveCons or instructors later down the road. The rest were vacation/warmwater divers. Granted...I was teaching in the 80's and after time I pretty much "retired" from active teaching. It probably is a different ballgame in some respects now simply because the sport has changed so much from then to now.

By the way when I taught, it was with a shop in Pt. Orchard, WA. I believe they moved to Tacoma many many years ago and I don't honestly even know if they are still in business. We probably have at different times been in the same waters, however I left the area in 1989.

 

[Cacia]

Yes, regional.

I cannot imagine this happening in Hawaii or the West Indies or the South Pacific. (feel free to correct me)

Does this "branding" carry over to your dry suits? because they cost a lot! What if a shop said you had to buy their brand of drysuit...is that even reasonable?

Personally, I think it is important to *confuse* yourself a bit about gear, so that you can be familiar with various setups and not be stumped in an emergency.