Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[SlowRain]

Yes, regional.

I cannot imagine this happening in Hawaii or the West Indies or the South Pacific. (feel free to correct me)

Does this "branding" carry over to your dry suits? because they cost a lot! What if a shop said you had to buy their brand of drysuit...is that even reasonable?

Personally, I think it is important to *confuse* yourself a bit about gear, so that you can be familiar with various setups and not be stumped in an emergency.

Actually my first non-neoprene drysuit was because of the dive shop I was affiliated with. It was an OS Nautilus which we got at factory cost back around 1986 I think. I also remember getting my first computer...and for the life of me I can't remember the model name, but it was an Orca and it looked very much like their current Marathon model. It was sold to instructors for 100 dollars. It flooded within the first year I had it.

But in fairness to your statement...I agree that there needs to be clear expectations set before you go to the trouble of getting a DM or Instructor certificate as to what the shop expects. In the OP's case apparently he was told one thing but the end was something else. Personally I would look at maybe another shop if you can't reach an agreement that makes both sides happy if that is an option.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Yes, regional.

I cannot imagine this happening in Hawaii or the West Indies or the South Pacific. (feel free to correct me)

Does this "branding" carry over to your dry suits? because they cost a lot! What if a shop said you had to buy their brand of drysuit...is that even reasonable?

Personally, I think it is important to *confuse* yourself a bit about gear, so that you can be familiar with various setups and not be stumped in an emergency.

Yes it does, Catherine.

The last shop I worked for was our local GUE shop ... they were looking for a NAUI or SSI instructor to teach their recreational classes. When I interviewed for the job I told them I already owned upwards of $25,000 worth of diving gear and was not interested in the position if it required me to purchase all new stuff. The dive shop owner assured me that it wouldn't.

After my first class, one of my students walked into the shop and said he wanted to buy a complete setup ... "exactly like Bob's". The shop owner wasn't happy ... because he didn't carry much of the gear I was wearing at the time.

I ended up compromising by having to purchase only a DUI drysuit and Halcyon wing ... both of which, fortunately, he gave me a very good deal on ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nereas]

I don't completely understand this, Dave. Are you saying that if Peter wants to help new divers, it shouldn't matter to him what gear he does it in?

Edited after reading Azza's post: Yes, a big part of Peter's reason for doing his DM was to have a beneficial influence on students, by serving as a role model for good trim and solid buoyancy control, and especially for non-silting propulsion, as that's important where we dive.

The role of the D/M is (1) to watch over students in a large class, (2) to help individual students who are having problems learning, and (3) to take pairs of students on tours.

Most stores require D/Ms to wear the highest version of whatever B/Cs that they offer for sale. Zeagle Ranger comes to mind as an extremely popular D/M or instructor B/C. Most new divers buy vest or back-inflation B/Cs. Few if any go for the BPW configuration.

The responsibility of the D/M is to demo gear that is for sale at the store, as far as the store owner is concerned. So if you are demo-ing tech gear, that would normally be years ahead of any of the students, and therefore self defeating.

This is the problem, as I see it to be.

The solution is conformity: wear what the store owner wants you to wear, and remember that it is his/her living and livelihood that is at stake.

My 2 euros' worth.

 

[nereas]

I think a lot of this is regional ... backplates are quite popular here...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Whenever I go anywhere in the world, I am usually the only one with a BPW. Virtually all of the others have jacket style B/Cs.

 

[vkalia]

Bob, usually I find it hard to disagree with what you say. In this case, I'll have to make an exception.

a) The "rules" were one thing during training, and something different after training was completed ... it feels a bit like "bait and switch".

He may FEEL that way, but that is merely a matter of perception. There is a difference between being a customer (DMT) and a representative of the business. As an instructor, you may let students get away with behavior which you would not tolerate in an employee. You know that. How is this different?

b) He's being told to "not worry about" showing exemplary skills during class ... I thought that the whole point of dive leadership was to define and demonstrate the parameters of good diving practices.

Oh come on. You are basing this entire mountain of assumptions about the instructor based on a throwaway comment that - from the sound of it - was far more likely intended to bypass a lengthy discussion/argument that the instructor did not want to have.

Have you never done that when facing a situation where you had made up your mind and didnt want to have a lengthy discussion about it with someone, but at the same time, didnt want to come across as too bossy? I certainly have, and I'd be very surprised - and a little irritated - if someone who wasnt there took my off-hand comment out of context and started extrapolating all sorts of inferences from it.

I am surprised that you are fixated on this. This is not very relevant to the discussion at hand - which, by the OP's own posts, is about wearing a traditional BCD when he wants to wear BP/wings.

The OP may indeed be a very good diver - but all we get to base our opinion on is his own statement that he doesn't feel comfortable diving in a BCD. So what is it? If he can maintain his trim and dive properly in a BCD, what's the big deal? The instructor is well within his rights to require the DM to wear the same gear as him and the rest of the class.

Catherine - I think at the OW level, there isnt a whole lot of "learning to manage different sorts of gear in an emergency" going on. There is nothing fundamentally different about BP/wings from a BCD as far as OW divers are concerned - nothing that cannot be covered in a buddy check, anyway. Yeah, it never hurts for divers to be exposed to different gear configs, but that is more to broaden their horizons than out of any particular safety-related reason.

Anway, I think this horse has been sufficiently beaten to death. Now I am more interested in finding & photographing that ghost pipefish tomorrow (when I will dive in a shop BCD/regs, actually, as I am having the cover of my wings re-stitched).

Safe diving, all.

Vandit

 

[ReefHound]

I think some of you are missing the point.

Peter's a very capable diver. I think he could hold trim using a rope harness and a couple of bleach bottles ... if that's what he wanted to do.

The issue isn't whether or not he's capable of diving in the alternate gear ... it's ...

a) The "rules" were one thing during training, and something different after training was completed ... it feels a bit like "bait and switch".

b) He's being told to "not worry about" showing exemplary skills during class ... I thought that the whole point of dive leadership was to define and demonstrate the parameters of good diving practices.

I don't think we're missing the point. I think we simply read the original post and took it at face value when he told the instructor his reason for wanting to dive his own rig was he wasn't comfortable in the Seaquest.

a) I've already stated my opinion that the instructor wanted him in standard student gear all along but didn't want to piss off a paying customer. Peter even said he was suggested throughout his DMC to use such standard gear. Now the question is whether they "allowed" him to use his rig in the OW dives by expressly saying so or by not objecting loudly when he did it. My guess is the "rules" didn't change but their enforcement of them did.

b) Maybe it's a matter of what skills. There's not much actual diving in an OW class, esp. in the pool. Mostly it's about operating the equipment (clearing the mask, retrieving/sharing the reg, centing BC, etc.) In any event, several of you that know him have reassured us that he can show exemplary skills even in a regular BC so that given "reason" is non sequitur.

With all these BP/W friendly shops in the area, why doesn't he simply DM for one of them? Issued resolved and everybody is happy.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

I'm not really sure why I started reading this thread, but here are my thoughts.

The shop owner really should have no problem with a DM's gear, provided it is gear that is sold by that shop. A BP/W is a perfectly acceptable BCD that is certainly suitable for recreational OW diving, so I see no conflict or confusion there - from the students' perspective, it's just another choice for one's gear. If the shop sells it, then it should be a non-issue.

I can't believe that I am about to write this, but there may be one significant advantage to using a traditional jacket for teaching purposes, at least at the entry level. Like it or not, the jacket style is the prevailing style of BC for rentals, so maybe it makes some sense to train students in equipment that they are more likely to encounter until they decide to purchase their own (at which point they can buy whatever they choose). Training them in BP/W, while it may help in some ways, may be a disservice in others. Ideally they should be introduced to both styles, but I suppose that is not always practical.

A secondary factor is that as a DM, you really should be able to trim out almost anything. If nothing else, it will show the students that buoyancy and trim are more about technique than they are about gear. Here's a good example of one person's approach to that issue - we have an OW instructor who is active with our DIR group here. He teaches at a local university, where the students are required to use university-owned equipment for the classes (which apparently is the more traditional style of stuff). He has the option of wearing whatever personal gear he chooses, though.

He has mentioned several times that he always uses the university gear for the first couple of pool sessions, basically pulling his own equipment from the same stockpile that the students are using. He does this to illustrate that it is possible to maintain trim and buoyancy, even when using "sub-optimal" (to use his words ) gear. For the later sessions (where they are doing air sharing, etc) he uses the DIR stuff. So at least the students get to see both styles, even if they only get to use the one.

I'm not sure if that helps the OP in the "advice" department, but I thought it might be interesting to have a second data point (albeit second-hand) from someone else in a similar situation.

 

[Peter Guy]

This has been very interesting for me to read -- both for the information and for the misunderstandings.

FOR THE RECORD:

a. The shop owner has not said one word to me about this -- ever. The only conversation I've had with paid staff about gear was that it is hoped that all DM's, AI's, I's will encourage students to shop at the store AND that they not bad mouth any of the gear. It has been specifically stated that it is shop policy NOT to require "teaching staff" to use only gear from the shop.

b. My instructor does not dive the same gear in OW as he dives in the pool (in fact, the standard practice is that pool gear is different from OW gear for all teaching staff!). I know that some of the gear my instructor uses in OW is NOT sold by the shop -- but probably most is (although I couldn't tell you what BCD he dives or reg he uses).

c. Since I'm doing this just for kicks, I'll see how it goes and if I don't like the restrictions, I'll just quietly walk away -- no harm, no foul. IF, later, some one asks me why, I'll tell them. Of course the DM "works for" the Instructor and must conform to his wishes -- my only decision is whether to accept his requirements. And, for me, that will be a simple decision to make.

Contrary to the poster who wrote "The solution is conformity" I believe the solution is to find a situation that fits me. (As my wife knows, I've never been one to "conform" -- it just doesn't fit my personality!)

 

[tedtim]

Bob, as you referred to in a different thread....we are getting to the point where the hot air is giving short fills.

The LDS a DM works for should set their expectations based on the agency's standards, their approach to business, and the reputation they want to present/maintain. If they are training someone to be a DM, IMHO the expectations should be clear to the DM candidate throughout the training. The DM candidate can then choose whether they want to volunteer their time to support classes with the LDS.

If the expectation is that the DM will wear a specfic gear configuration while working/volunteering to support training for the LDS then, at a minimum, I would expect they would either provide the gear at no cost (perhaps out of rental kit), or sell it to the DM at a very, very low markup over cost. Again, the DM has the choice.

I know of more than a few folks who took DM training out of interest, did not submit the application, and were not certified as a DM. I also know a few others who took the DM training, submitted the application, received the certification, then moved on to a different place. While under training, if the gear configuration conforms to the standards of the agency under which the training is sanctioned there should be no problem.

The OP focused on gear configuration during courses. A DM is supposed to do more than assist training. Suppose someone comes into a LDS looking for a review session, or someone to provide a bit of local orientation. The DM can do that. Will the LDS require the DM to wear a specific gear configuration? If so, this expectation should also be established ahead of time.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Whenever I go anywhere in the world, I am usually the only one with a BPW. Virtually all of the others have jacket style B/Cs.

Then consider this an invitation to come dive in Puget Sound ... you'll find lots of people here in BP/W's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)