Good all-purpose BC? Or BP w/ wings?

[jepuskar]

I have about 20 dives on my BP/Wing and I am going to agree with SeaJay....I will not go back to a back/side inflate BC.

For MY purpose of diving, a BP/Wing is excellent. I am a pure recreational diver who likes to enjoy the sport. I enjoy it more when I use less energy and have a great control over my body position in the water. Not only this, but a BP/Wing setup is actually simplistic to other BC's. Yes, there are some adjustments to get use too, but once it is set..it's set!

Your diving actually becomes easier. I can honestly say that I have never felt soo comfortable in the water than I have with the BP/Wing. I dont think it is for everybody though, but it IS for me.

Jason

 

[jplacson]

Ok, one thing I've noticed is that BP advocates can be a little confusing to newbies

Most newbies or divers who've never tried BP don't get the whole "it performs better" phrase... that's not a very quantifiable answer.

So, from all the passionate BP users I've heard from here (thanks to all of you... my Halcyon 27 is on its way!!! ) .. here it is in simpler terms-

BP/Wings: when they say "performs better" they mean:

-more range of movement (straps don't obstruct movement like padding does)

-less prone to breaking (one piece of nylon webbing isn't exactly weak... if you're doing something where the breaking point of nylon webbing is your problem... you've got bigger problems!)

-more hydrodynamic (the over-all shape of a BP/wings setup is smaller than a jacket BC... since most BP don't have pockets, you have less items causing drag and slowing you down as you fin through the water)

-can handle more situations (since BPs were primarily designed for cave & technical diving where safety is paramount... any situation in OW where you have to go through some small opening or get trapped somewhere... it's good to know that your BC is small enough NOT to get snagged or get tangled up in something.

-it can grown with your training BP are very modular. You can change every part of a BP setup... from the BP itself, the webbing, the bladder (single or double tanks), add pockets, add weights, add D-rings, remove straps, add straps, add tank mounts... all interchangable... so you can technically have a BC for all occasions! :lol:

-durable - the nylon used in most BP setups is thicker than the nylong used in jacket BCs... for the simple reason that BP are used in more demanding environments where the bladder could get ripped. Don't get fooled by the whole "ballistic nylon","used in bulletproof vests" marketing crap... that's just a way of saying "this is what covers the Kevlar bulletproof-armor on bulletproof vests"... Ballistic nylon is strong... but it's NOT bulletproof. The thicker it is...the better... most BP wings use 1000 grade nylon or better. Jackets use around the 400-600 range. Plus BP wings are very simple... it's a metal plate with a balloon bolted to it. Then you tie that to your back! :lol: ... The simplicity also allows easy repairs while in the field. Parts are easily available, and you can take the whole thing apart and fix it on the spot. You can't do that with a jacket BC...not that easily anyway.

-transparent - this means that due to the minimalist approach of a BP wing, you will hardly notice it when you're diving... and that's a good thing... the Holy Grail of diving equipment is to make you NOT notice that they're there. You're not supposed to struggle while breathing, finning, or moving underwater.


Now, I'm not saying that jacket BC are a death-trap... I know a lot of people who love them... and there are a lot of jackets that are a whole lot cheaper than BP wings. There's nothing really, really wrong with them... it's just that they aren't really built to last. That's why they usually cost less. The ones that cost more, are not worth it... simply because they don't improve your dive... I'll explain... most expensive jackets (...Mares HUB for example) ... are there to dazzle new divers with pockets, and "depth compensating straps" fancy way of saying garter, and more straps, and 1,000,000 D-rings (which OW divers never use anyway), and twin-tank capabilty, and "Ballistic nylon! Used for bulletproof vests!", and multiple dump valves, and more pockets, and more "depth compensating straps", and more D-rings... you get the picture. (I should know, I'm in advertising!)

And mind you, there's still nothing wrong with jacket BCs... it's just that some of them aren't worth it. Some are... if all you're after is a cheap BC that you won't use very often... and you don't want to spend a whole lot... then there are a lot of BCs you can choose from. And don't worry... there's nothing wrong with them. But if you're going to spend anywhere from US$400 and up... I really would recommend you check out the BP wings. The modularity alone makes them worth it... if you're worried about the face-down issue (can be solved with trim weights..but still) .. get a Closed Circuit Balloon signal and hug it at surface!

Oh, and one final note... you have it the wrong way... it's not a "Good all-purpose BC, or BP & wings" ... it should read "Good, All-purpose BP & wings, or cheap BC". A jacket BC that costs almost as much as a BP & wings...IMO... is not worth it.

 

[paulwlee]

I am also in the market for a new BC.
I've tried a few models, and also the BP with Halcyon 36# wing.
I will probably go with the BP/wing, because I like its simplicity and the added bonus that it dries fast. (And I plan on looking into tech diving eventually, even if not in the near future.)

However, I would caution a person to definitely try a BP/wing first before jumping in. My impression is there will be a large group of people who will not like it. The nylon webbing as straps are harsh, and for people to whom comfort is very important, it may not be the best choice. As for stability and trim, if you find a BC that fits you well, it can probably be made as good as the BP/wing. Most times the problem is that people don't know how poorly the particular BC fits them. The BP/wing is indeed very adjustable, but there's bound to be a BC that fits someone well, even if it takes some trials.

Another consideration is pockets. There is a definite need of pockets for most people. Although I agree that the best place for pockets are on the side of the thighs of the suit, if one is diving wetsuits and don't want to add pockets to it, (e.g. it's also used for snorkeling, skin diving, etc.) IMO a BC with pockets will probably be better than BP/wing.

 

[SeaJay]

paulwlee once bubbled...
However, I would caution a person to definitely try a BP/wing first before jumping in. My impression is there will be a large group of people who will not like it. The nylon webbing as straps are harsh, and for people to whom comfort is very important, it may not be the best choice.

I couldn't disagree more. If you hang 50 pounds of gear on someone's shoulders with a 1" strap that's padded, it's no better than a 2" unpadded strap. In fact, I've seen quick release buckles dig in to people's shoulders if they wear their tank too low. Harnesses don't do that.

Additionally, most people wear wetsuits... Which nullify the effects of a padded BC anyway.

I know they LOOK uncomfortable, but they're not - at least that'm my opinion.

As for stability and trim, if you find a BC that fits you well, it can probably be made as good as the BP/wing.

No chance, unless the BC's got a metal plate in it and a crotchstrap. Yes, they look uncomfy too, but I can assure you that they aren't.

Another consideration is pockets. There is a definite need of pockets for most people. Although I agree that the best place for pockets are on the side of the thighs of the suit, if one is diving wetsuits and don't want to add pockets to it, (e.g. it's also used for snorkeling, skin diving, etc.) IMO a BC with pockets will probably be better than BP/wing.

Halcyon, as well as several other manufacturers, make great harness pockets that are much larger than anything I've seen on any mainstream BC... And because they sit on the harness, you can tuck them under your arm, making them about 100 times more streamlined.

In fact, I use one on my regular rig.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Check your PMs.

Doc

 

[paulwlee]

I just knew someone would reply.

SeaJay once bubbled...


I couldn't disagree more. If you hang 50 pounds of gear on someone's shoulders with a 1" strap that's padded, it's no better than a 2" unpadded strap. In fact, I've seen quick release buckles dig in to people's shoulders if they wear their tank too low. Harnesses don't do that.

The shoulder of my old BC's harness (US Divers Cousteau) is a padded 3". But, to get back to my point, I was more referring to the comfort when handling the gear. Cummerbunds and straps etc. on BC's have softer surfaces than webbing, and are more pleasant to handle. Sure, you and I and many people here don't care at all about this, but IMO there are people out there who do, if the tradeoffs aren't too bad.

No chance, unless the BC's got a metal plate in it and a crotchstrap. Yes, they look uncomfy too, but I can assure you that they aren't.

What do you base this on? I never had any riding up with my old BC, and the tank was held to my back completely securely. I was also able to maintain any position I wanted with no sculling.
I didn't really see a big difference in these aspects when using the BP/wings. As I stated in my first post, I believe most such issues with BC's are due to poor fit. (Please note, I'm not saying that there aren't crappy BC's out there.)

As for the crotchstrap, there are many people out there who say they don't need a crotchstrap with BP/wings when they're diving single tanks.

Halcyon, as well as several other manufacturers, make great harness pockets that are much larger than anything I've seen on any mainstream BC... And because they sit on the harness, you can tuck them under your arm, making them about 100 times more streamlined.

Hmm.. get rid of pockets but then hang it on your waist strap?
Pockets attached to the waiststrap is nonsense to me. I buy the argument that a pocket's place is at the thighs because they are ten times more accesible, but putting the pocket on the harness is just a kludge IMHO. An integrated pocket is much easier to deal with. As for the streamlining argument, I'm very skeptical that it would make any difference at all unless one is scootering. I would be very very very interested if someone wants to do a test whether this is actually true.

FWIW, I am also leaning towards getting BP/wings to replace my dead BC, but I feel that it's not really the best choice for everyone.

 

[SeaJay]

paulwlee once bubbled...

What do you base this on? I never had any riding up with my old BC, and the tank was held to my back completely securely.

About 120 dives with about 30 different BC's... All of them different brands and different styles.

My findings also agreed with many other people, telling me that I wasn't alone in this feeling.

I don't profess to understand why you feel differently, but I understand that you do. No sweat.

I was also able to maintain any position I wanted with no sculling.

I would like to see that. No offense meant... But I would simply like to see that demonstrated, as I was unable to achieve that result.

I didn't really see a big difference in these aspects when using the BP/wings.

I didn't see a huge difference either, until my skills began to surpass what a BC was willing to give. Prior to that, any sort of buoyancy device was fine by me.

I'm not saying that your skills are crappy... That was just my personal experience. I felt very differently about bp/wings on my 50th dive than I did on my 200th dive... And I'm just a newbie.

As for the crotchstrap, there are many people out there who say they don't need a crotchstrap with BP/wings when they're diving single tanks.

Oh, and I agree. They're not necessary. But the rig is considerably more stable with them than without. At least, that's been my humble experience.

Hmm.. get rid of pockets but then hang it on your waist strap?

Goofy, hunh?

I agree that they belong on the legs, but that's not always possible.

...So in the meantime, yes, I beleive that a harness pocket that's tucked into the slipstream behind an arm produces much less drag and bulk than the smaller (sometimes worthlessly small) pockets on your average BC. You should at least look at these before dismissing them.

An integrated pocket is much easier to deal with.

How can you say that if you've never even seen one? Forget I asked... You're entitled to your opinion. All I can say is that my opinion differs.

As for the streamlining argument, I'm very skeptical that it would make any difference at all unless one is scootering. I would be very very very interested if someone wants to do a test whether this is actually true.

Please use the search feature above. There are countless personal testimonies about the streamlining advantages of a bp/wing, specifically the advantages in dumping the cummerbund, frontal pockets, oversized wings, thick, buoyant plastic plates, "hanging gadgets," and of course, all of that padding... I don't know that anyone's actually ever quantified the actual difference in drag, but that hasn't been necessary, IMHO. There's enough personal testimony that nobody's felt the need to quantify it.

FWIW, I am also leaning towards getting BP/wings to replace my dead BC, but I feel that it's not really the best choice for everyone.

I agree. The only ones who would benefit from the use of a bp/wings would be those who are looking for the simplest, most bulletproof, most rugged, most streamlined, most stable, most balanced, and most capable BC on the market. Those not looking for those features might be interested in the HUB system.

 

[paulwlee]

As I mentioned before, I believe that most of the stability problems people have with BC's is due to fit. FYI, I was using a size small BC due to my being skinny, and it looked pretty small on me, but it did work very well underwater.

OTOH, backplates are superbly adjustable, so once it's adjusted right, it's bound to be great in that respect.

I would like to see that. No offense meant... But I would simply like to see that demonstrated, as I was unable to achieve that result.

There really isn't that much that's unique with wings in terms of buoyancy characteristics. IF you were to place all your weights on the backplate/tank using weighted STA's and such ther would be a difference. But if you are wearing weightbelts or using ACB's, you can have very similar weight placement by using what BC's offer.

I didn't see a huge difference either, until my skills began to surpass what a BC was willing to give. Prior to that, any sort of buoyancy device was fine by me.

I'm not saying that your skills are crappy... That was just my personal experience. I felt very differently about bp/wings on my 50th dive than I did on my 200th dive... And I'm just a newbie.

Since I only have a dozen or so dives on a BP/wings maybe there really is something I am missing, but right now I don't feel that there could be anything much more. Maybe if we had a chance to dive together I can find out, but looks unlikely since we live in opposite sides of the continent.

Are there some specific things that you found much easier with a BP/wings setup? Or was it just a general thing? I am always looking to improve my diving, so I'd really be happy if I could be pointed to things that I can try.

I don't know that anyone's actually ever quantified the actual difference in drag, but that hasn't been necessary, IMHO. There's enough personal testimony that nobody's felt the need to quantify it.

There has also been a lot of talk that split fins don't get you anywhere and are slower than paddle fins. (Note I'm not saying that split fins are best, just that they are not crap as some people felt they were.) I was skeptical from the beginning about the streamlining argument, and it hasn't changed now that I tried the BP/wing. I also personally prefer the lack of clutter that the BP/wing offers, as do many other people, but that doesn't mean that the resistance moving through water is noticably affected by BC's. Well, if I get the time some day, maybe I'll try some timing runs and air consumption tests.

I agree. The only ones who would benefit from the use of a bp/wings would be those who are looking for the simplest, most bulletproof, most rugged, most streamlined, most stable, most balanced, and most capable BC on the market.

Right. Those who don't mind a bit of extra effort to don/doff it and other minor inconveniences to get the best in what matters to them. You and I are one of them, some people are not.

Those not looking for those features might be interested in the HUB system.

Speaking of which, I was flipping through a new Aqualung catalog at my LDS, and they are coming out with a HUB-like system too!

In summary, I respect your opinions, and I agree that BP/wings are great, which is why I'll probably be getting one. But, BC's are not that bad if well chosen, and may be better choices for some people.

 

[SeaJay]

paulwlee once bubbled...

There really isn't that much that's unique with wings in terms of buoyancy characteristics. IF you were to place all your weights on the backplate/tank using weighted STA's and such ther would be a difference. But if you are wearing weightbelts or using ACB's, you can have very similar weight placement by using what BC's offer.

Agreed. I think the bottom line is that a bp/wing is just a "regular" BC with modularity, some of the weight situated on the shoulder blades, extra stability, and a simplified harness that's cheap to replace. They're not magic... Just a unique approach.

Since I only have a dozen or so dives on a BP/wings maybe there really is something I am missing, but right now I don't feel that there could be anything much more. Maybe if we had a chance to dive together I can find out, but looks unlikely since we live in opposite sides of the continent.

Yeah, that really sucks. Apparently you're on the West Coast... Are you in SoCal or more north?

Are there some specific things that you found much easier with a BP/wings setup?

Definitely.

I found that the bp/wing configuration allowed me to perform skill sets that were almost impossible in a "regular" BC because of the bp/wing's "natural" trim characteristics and it's stability. For a list of these skills, check out the "Training Videos" on my site... http://www.LCscuba.com and then "Look."

See, I didn't see a clear difference between bp/wings and "regular" BC's until I saw and performed these skills (or at least tried, anyway) myself.

...So the real question is... Are these skills things that are necessary... Or even desired... While underwater?

...Which is a biiiig point here. Huge, in fact. The point is that these skills, which are taught by GUE in their DIR-F course, are the true focus... Which is exactly why DIR divers say that "it's about the skills" while many questioning the DIR style see it as an equipment issue.

Until I tried these things, I did not see any advantage to a bp/wings. After seeing them performed successfully, I realized that the bp/wing was a better tool for performing that set of skills. The real question is... Are those skills that you want to be able to perform underwater?

If the ability to reach your valves is something that you would like to have underwater, then tank stability is going to be very important... And a bp/wing is a tool that will enable you to do that better than a "regular" BC.

If the ability to control your pitch and attitude in the water column (without finning) is important to you, then you'll find that a bp/wing is a better tool for the job.

If the ability to change your gear configuration without a major ordeal is important to you... Or if you'd like to be able to count on your gear as either more durable or easier to repair... Then you might find that a bp/wing is a better tool.

I am always looking to improve my diving, so I'd really be happy if I could be pointed to things that I can try.

Likewise!

Check out some of those videos...

Those who don't mind a bit of extra effort to don/doff it and other minor inconveniences to get the best in what matters to them. You and I are one of them, some people are not.

Have you found it more difficult to don/doff?

I've found that slipping my body down... Or the bp/wing up... Is noticably easier than getting into it straight on, and then having to clip and adjust.

It's the "slipping down" part which I've found to be different than a "regular" BC.

Speaking of which, I was flipping through a new Aqualung catalog at my LDS, and they are coming out with a HUB-like system too!

Oh Lord.

In summary, I respect your opinions, and I agree that BP/wings are great, which is why I'll probably be getting one. But, BC's are not that bad if well chosen, and may be better choices for some people.

Fair enough. I respect your opinions as well.

Mine were like yours... But changed after I tried a new skill set. I don't know where you are in your skills, and you may be ahead of me... But that was my experience.

 

[paulwlee]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Yeah, that really sucks. Apparently you're on the West Coast... Are you in SoCal or more north?

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I do most of my local diving in Monterey/Carmel. I hope I'll be able to dive at some of the wrecks over there some day.

I found that the bp/wing configuration allowed me to perform skill sets that were almost impossible in a "regular" BC because of the bp/wing's "natural" trim characteristics and it's stability. For a list of these skills, check out the "Training Videos" on my site... http://www.LCscuba.com and then "Look."

Actually, since I am always 'on the prowl' to better my diving, I had looked at some DIR related places on the web and had tried those skills. Horizontal descents and helicopter turns were something I had already been doing for a long time. I'm still working on my backwards swim because it's still not as fluid as I want it to be, but that also has a little to do with my Atomic split fins. I found it much easier with my old fins. (clone of US divers rocket fins, which are in turn near clones of Jet fins)
I think the enabling factor for most of those skills is whether one can maintain a comfortable horizontal trim without sculling, which you can achieve with a good well fitting BC, and good weight configuration.

...So the real question is... Are these skills things that are necessary... Or even desired... While underwater?

...Which is a biiiig point here. Huge, in fact. The point is that these skills, which are taught by GUE in their DIR-F course, are the true focus... Which is exactly why DIR divers say that "it's about the skills" while many questioning the DIR style see it as an equipment issue.

They are useful skills to have, but are much more critical to cave or wreck divers. IMHO, for recreational open water divers, it's great if you can do them, but aren't really necessary.

If the ability to reach your valves is something that you would like to have underwater, then tank stability is going to be very important... And a bp/wing is a tool that will enable you to do that better than a "regular" BC.

If the ability to control your pitch and attitude in the water column (without finning) is important to you, then you'll find that a bp/wing is a better tool for the job.

I still maintain that good BC's that fit well are as good in this respect, but BP/wings do work well.

If the ability to change your gear configuration without a major ordeal is important to you... Or if you'd like to be able to count on your gear as either more durable or easier to repair... Then you might find that a bp/wing is a better tool.

Please bear in mind that I was mostly talking about recreational divers who really won't have any gear configuration changes.
But I do agree with the durability and ease of repair argument. One thing that does bother me, though, is that there are many people out there that get their wings damaged due to contact with their backplates, which is something that doesn't occur with BC's. If you have a 6lb SS metal piece, you can't just chuck the whole thing this way and that with impunity as you would a BC.

Have you found it more difficult to don/doff?

I got used to it and could do it easily enough, but a BC is easier to don and doff. I think most people agree on that. It's just a matter of how important that is to you. For me, I like the stark simplicity of the BP/wing system enough to not mind it at all.

Mine were like yours... But changed after I tried a new skill set. I don't know where you are in your skills, and you may be ahead of me... But that was my experience.

Maybe mine will change too, I don't know. Although I think I am doing just fine with those skills, I'm sure when I take DIRF the instructor will find them quite inadequate.
Nice website by the way.