You and your wife and newly certified daughter and son are all trained cave divers?
If not, you won't even get close to the kinds of max and avg depths being talked about in this thread.
Ginnie springs depth?
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You and your wife and newly certified daughter and son are all trained cave divers?
If not, you won't even get close to the kinds of max and avg depths being talked about in this thread.
PfcAJ
Contributor
Deco isn't an exact science, and outcomes of bent or not bent are probabilistic.
I could do the same dive twice and get bent on one and not the other. It's the way the game is.
I could do the same dive twice and get bent on one and not the other. It's the way the game is.
FLNativeGuy
Registered
tursiops (or others in the know) ....none of us are cave divers. Just want to try some fresh water diving and at least respect the risk of cave diving stuff.
Frankly after more that 40 years of salt water diving, I'm looking forward to trying a dive where I don't have to rinse the salt off my dive gear! LOL.
Just curious ...What type of depths can we expect to see at Ginnie Springs?
PFcAJ....wow! How many times have you been bent in your 5000 plus dives? And better yet ...did you push the limits? Was this before computers? And what did you do about it (how many hyperbaric chambers have you enjoyed
....Please tell us more details.
I'm a low time time diver compared to you, but I watch and adhere to the numbers ......and thank goodness no issues so far..And maybe Nitrox is why too.... Most our dives offshore the Pompano Beach to Key Largo area are 50 to 90 ft and the algorithms have been good to us (so far).
Thanks for all your comments.
Frankly after more that 40 years of salt water diving, I'm looking forward to trying a dive where I don't have to rinse the salt off my dive gear! LOL.
Just curious ...What type of depths can we expect to see at Ginnie Springs?
PFcAJ....wow! How many times have you been bent in your 5000 plus dives? And better yet ...did you push the limits? Was this before computers? And what did you do about it (how many hyperbaric chambers have you enjoyed
....Please tell us more details.I'm a low time time diver compared to you, but I watch and adhere to the numbers ......and thank goodness no issues so far..And maybe Nitrox is why too.... Most our dives offshore the Pompano Beach to Key Largo area are 50 to 90 ft and the algorithms have been good to us (so far).
Thanks for all your comments.
PfcAJ
Contributor
I don't *actually* have infinity dives. Its a joke.
BUT in the 10 years that I've been technical diving, I have been around enough to see more than a handful of friends get bent, some minor cases, some more serious cases. I've even been the first responder to a fairly significant type 2 DCS case. I'm also personal friends with two NEDU decompression researchers, so I have an interesting perspective after spending so much time with those guys.
On a given dive for a given ascent, you encounter *some* chance of DCS. Its so infrequent that its easy to try and place a 'reason' on what caused it. Fact of the matter is that every dive incurs some risk of DCS. For a 50-90ft rec profile, its absurdly low. Hard to even track its so low. That's not the case in technical diving where DCS rates are more like .25% or higher (depending on the profile). You can easily be 'within the limits' of whatever ascent schedule you choose and still get bent. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Decompression is a world of grays. Its uncomfortable, but its the reality of it.
BUT in the 10 years that I've been technical diving, I have been around enough to see more than a handful of friends get bent, some minor cases, some more serious cases. I've even been the first responder to a fairly significant type 2 DCS case. I'm also personal friends with two NEDU decompression researchers, so I have an interesting perspective after spending so much time with those guys.
On a given dive for a given ascent, you encounter *some* chance of DCS. Its so infrequent that its easy to try and place a 'reason' on what caused it. Fact of the matter is that every dive incurs some risk of DCS. For a 50-90ft rec profile, its absurdly low. Hard to even track its so low. That's not the case in technical diving where DCS rates are more like .25% or higher (depending on the profile). You can easily be 'within the limits' of whatever ascent schedule you choose and still get bent. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Decompression is a world of grays. Its uncomfortable, but its the reality of it.
KevinNM
Contributor
I spent a few hours not going into the caverns/caves (doing a class focusing on kicks) and don't think I could get deeper than 8 feet. Past that I would have needed to head down into the devil's eye or ear. But I have no idea how the rest of the site is, I was just there that one afternoon.
ucfdiver
Contributor
OW diving only - max depth is about 30' in the Ear. The eye and Ginnie Basin will never get below 20' in the Open Water. Little Devils can get to about 35', but there's not much to see there.
"OW Diving" in the cavern at Ginnie Springs ("the Ballroom") - max depth will be about 60' by the grate. This is the only cavern they allow OW divers to dive at Ginnie Springs, but be aware it is indeed a cavern and you should follow all typical cavern rules; start with no less than 2100 PSI, head for the exit when you have used 1/3rd of your starting gas (if you start with 2100, head for the exit at 1400; if you start with 3000, head out at 2000, etc), and each diver should have two lights (primary and backup). I'm kind of not a fan of OW divers diving the ballroom, but it's their park, their rules.
In the cave system (Devil's Eye/Devil's Ear), typical max depth is 95' (average of 85'), but in the back depths can go in excess of 150'.
As AJ said, decompression is not an exact science. Computers try to use a binary/digital yes/no ("clear to surface" -vs- "not-clear to surface") for a very fuzzy, poorly understood, analog system (the human body). Many factors can influence your risk of decompression sickness, some of them include work rate, whether or not you got cold, hydration levels, recency of diving, PFO, etc. No one really knows how all of this stuff works, and no computer will guarantee you won't get bent. The only guarantee to avoid DCS is don't dive, or don't ascend from depth.
BUT, we do know some profiles work with a reasonable level of success.
BTW -- My personal experience is that a PFO will greatly increase your risk of getting bent, but in my case, it was only on certain profiles. Long dives and I was probably going to get bent (long being something like 80+ minutes at 100'). Deep dives and it was a crapshoot, one day I could do a 230' dive and be fine, the next day I'd get bent. Couple deep and long, and I was guaranteed to get bent. But I could do ~4-5 "recreational" dives a day for 10 days straight (think diving vacation in the Caribbean or a live-aboard) without problems.
In most cases when I got bent, the hit was simple skin bends (itchiness, rash), and I just considered it part of the game. At my current level of diving activity, this was about one skin hit a month (on average). But after a particularly nasty type 2 hit last year I finally decided to get the PFO fixed -- this was a tough decision for me, and one I've struggled with for almost 20 years due to the risks involved (it is heart surgery). I wasn't even sure I had a PFO because it did not register on what had been the "gold standard" test (trans-esophagial echocardiogram) the three times I've had that procedure done, it only showed up on a TTE (trans-thoracic echocardiogram), which is not considered reliable (but there it was!)
I had the closure done in September '14 with an Amplatzer device, and since being cleared to resume diving I've logged close to 180 dives with depths down to 285' and been asymptomatic on all of them, so I consider the surgery a success.
Wow, talk about over-sharing..
"OW Diving" in the cavern at Ginnie Springs ("the Ballroom") - max depth will be about 60' by the grate. This is the only cavern they allow OW divers to dive at Ginnie Springs, but be aware it is indeed a cavern and you should follow all typical cavern rules; start with no less than 2100 PSI, head for the exit when you have used 1/3rd of your starting gas (if you start with 2100, head for the exit at 1400; if you start with 3000, head out at 2000, etc), and each diver should have two lights (primary and backup). I'm kind of not a fan of OW divers diving the ballroom, but it's their park, their rules.
In the cave system (Devil's Eye/Devil's Ear), typical max depth is 95' (average of 85'), but in the back depths can go in excess of 150'.
As AJ said, decompression is not an exact science. Computers try to use a binary/digital yes/no ("clear to surface" -vs- "not-clear to surface") for a very fuzzy, poorly understood, analog system (the human body). Many factors can influence your risk of decompression sickness, some of them include work rate, whether or not you got cold, hydration levels, recency of diving, PFO, etc. No one really knows how all of this stuff works, and no computer will guarantee you won't get bent. The only guarantee to avoid DCS is don't dive, or don't ascend from depth.
BUT, we do know some profiles work with a reasonable level of success.
BTW -- My personal experience is that a PFO will greatly increase your risk of getting bent, but in my case, it was only on certain profiles. Long dives and I was probably going to get bent (long being something like 80+ minutes at 100'). Deep dives and it was a crapshoot, one day I could do a 230' dive and be fine, the next day I'd get bent. Couple deep and long, and I was guaranteed to get bent. But I could do ~4-5 "recreational" dives a day for 10 days straight (think diving vacation in the Caribbean or a live-aboard) without problems.
In most cases when I got bent, the hit was simple skin bends (itchiness, rash), and I just considered it part of the game. At my current level of diving activity, this was about one skin hit a month (on average). But after a particularly nasty type 2 hit last year I finally decided to get the PFO fixed -- this was a tough decision for me, and one I've struggled with for almost 20 years due to the risks involved (it is heart surgery). I wasn't even sure I had a PFO because it did not register on what had been the "gold standard" test (trans-esophagial echocardiogram) the three times I've had that procedure done, it only showed up on a TTE (trans-thoracic echocardiogram), which is not considered reliable (but there it was!)
I had the closure done in September '14 with an Amplatzer device, and since being cleared to resume diving I've logged close to 180 dives with depths down to 285' and been asymptomatic on all of them, so I consider the surgery a success.
Wow, talk about over-sharing..
FLNativeGuy
Registered
Ginnie springs update - The four of us really enjoyed our dive there today. That cool water temp sure feels great in the central Florida heat.
We were not allowed to have lights but a couple nice divers with lights provided illumination that made the experience more enjoyable.
But even without lights our eyes adjusted and we could still enjoy it.
Holding my Computer on the bottom I was able to establish the bottom at 47 feet.
We never saw any spiny lobster under the rocks and fortunately no jellyfish. I suppose at high tide all bets are off and the sealife changes dramatically...
We were not allowed to have lights but a couple nice divers with lights provided illumination that made the experience more enjoyable.
But even without lights our eyes adjusted and we could still enjoy it.
Holding my Computer on the bottom I was able to establish the bottom at 47 feet.
We never saw any spiny lobster under the rocks and fortunately no jellyfish. I suppose at high tide all bets are off and the sealife changes dramatically...
ucfdiver
Contributor
For what it's worth, you CAN see baby flounder in the eye and sometimes the ear. Look closely at the rocks in the eye, they blend in well.Ginnie springs update - The four of us really enjoyed our dive there today. That cool water temp sure feels great in the central Florida heat.
We were not allowed to have lights but a couple nice divers with lights provided illumination that made the experience more enjoyable.
But even without lights our eyes adjusted and we could still enjoy it.
Holding my Computer on the bottom I was able to establish the bottom at 47 feet.
We never saw any spiny lobster under the rocks and fortunately no jellyfish. I suppose at high tide all bets are off and the sealife changes dramatically...
I saw an eel in the ballroom on Saturday.
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