Fresh ammo for the bp/wings debate

[SeaJay]

Walter once bubbled...

SeaJay,

I'd be interested in your response to my post. Post it if you'd like, if not, I'd like you to send a copy to me. I'm interested in your thoughts.

Thanks, Walter.

To be perfectly honest, I did not keep a copy of it, and I don't know that I could reproduce it word-for-word. However, I do remember that it simply replied to each of your comments, in a very nit-picky sort of way, accusing you of "nit-picking" and not seeing the big message, and instead seeing individual points which weren't really the idea of the article in the first place.

In short, it wasn't rude, but it was slightly inflammatory... And when I read KKMatt's post (that "everyone was entiteld to their opinion," and that I'd "posted here to get a review,") I decided that I should just thank you for your opinion and drop it.

IMHO, I'd rather stay amicable than argue something to death. My idea for writing the article was to help those "in the dark" to at least understand what the argument was about, at least from a bp/wing wearer's perspective. Possibly then it would take all of the mystique out of the bp/wing.

I did take a lot of what you had to say and applied it. if you reread the article again, you'll see several changes. They're subtle, but effective I think.

Let me know what other ideas you have.

RavenC & leadweight,

Jet Fins.

I purchased a set... They didn't fit me, so I'm going to be looking into either the Turtles or the Rockets. Thoughts?

 

[ScoobieDooo]

SeaJay,
I had to switch from the Scubapro Jets recently to IDI Power fins because I needed a large foot pocket. And yes, the IDI Power fin DOES have a slightly bigger (wider) foot pocket than the Jets. IF one has really big feet, like a men’s size 10 or better, than the IDI Turtle is the way to go...otherwise, my IDI is SO close to the Scubapro Jet its hard to tell them apart side by side.

In fact, I'm amazed that the IDI hasn't infringed on patents from the Scubapro fins its so identical!

 

[SeaJay]

Since the first paragraph of my article was largely speculative opinion anyway, and since, by far, the debate here on this thread focused largely around the material in that first paragraph, I have deleted it reworked the second paragraph slightly so as to read better as an opener. IMHO, the article isn't as "pretty" as it once was, and because we start basically at paragraph two, the article does some assuming that the reader knows and understands what a BC is and why it's important. To me, that's "missing" something, but with a less controversial opening paragraph and of course... With a shorter text... Well, those benefits may outweigh the disadvantages of the assumption.

Let me know if y'all think this is an improvement.

 

[FredT]

ScoobieDooo once bubbled...
SeaJay,
In fact, I'm amazed that the IDI hasn't infringed on patents from the Scubapro fins its so identical!

The Jets were patented in the 60s.

Any patent rights they had to that design will have long since expired.

FT

 

[Waterborne]

Many around here think that I am anti BP & Wings. What I am against is the over-selling of the BP & wings by this particular online community. That leaves me in the position of pointing out some areas where the Bp & wings are weak. A lot of people around here are of the mindset that BP & Wings are the ultimate rig for all divers and all conditions. That is a ridiculous claim for just about any gear.

Any rig that one could use from a "puddle jump" all the way up to 18,000' back in a cave, IS the ultimate rig. The rig does work for any dive under any conditions. It has proven by the various types of diving that it's users on this board do. Not to mention the thousands of people that have been using that very system before this board was created. IMHO, something that works that well and covers all diving under any condition, oversell away.

FWIW SeaJay, I liked the article

 

[leadweight]

You can use anything for a puddle jump. I am not alone in saying that the BP & Wings is a poor choice for the casual diver who takes one or two warm water trips per year. That diver could spend an entire vacation sorting out the BP. He might not ever get it right. He might not have a friend available to help him with it or any decent place near home to go to sort it out. How about divers who use really minimal exposure suits, like .5 mil, skins or nothing? Love those stiff shoulder straps.

Its the typical pattern around here. Joe Casual diver asks "what is the best jacket BC" and ten zealots chime in "BP" without even asking what kind of diving he does. That is because they don't care. That is over selling. Needless to say a flame fight breaks out and Joe is never heard from again.

Going 18000 feet back in a cave proves it is good for caves. It proves nothing for Joe Casual who will never dive doubles, let alone see the inside of an underwater cave. He wants to take his BC out of the bag and use it without any trouble.

Thousands dive BP's. Many more dive alternative systems like the TPII, and Zeagle. Millions dive jackets.

It never fails to amaze me that every diver who buys a BP feels compelled to convert everyone else to their way of doing things. It must be the feeling of pride that comes from getting through adjusting the darn thing.

I am going to go out and get some spring straps and use them to shoot paper wads at a BP

 

[gilgripper]

Seajay, your post was a good try at providing some good info to people, however, it was filled with bias and opinion.

I dont agree with many of the points you make, and I think Walter already explained most of them...

great reply walter, BTW...

IMO, its every divers choice what they want to dive. The fact remains that the so called "jacket" or vest BCD is the favored BCD for training and new divers. I think we all gravitate to what we know and what we learned on. Most divers train on vest or jacket style bcs when they first learn, and then most buy that same style of BCD when they decide to purchase gear, because that is what they are familiar with. When i first learned to dive almost ten years ago, I was given a back inflation BCD (Zeagle Ranger) to train with. And that is what I ended up purchasing as my first BC. I see it all the time in the shop also. We use jacket style BCD's for training, and that is also our top selling BCD (actually the same one we use for training).

Bottom line is, some of these people do go on and get additional training and then get a BP and W setup.

I am still of the opinion that BPW is for technical diving, and using doubles. No one will ever convince me that open water students learn better or are safer divers if they train on BPW. just my opinion....

 

[ScoobieDooo]

Pffttt!

GREAT post leadweight, I couldn't have said it better! As I recall, that particular argument got a former member kicked off when the debate heated up between BP's and jacket BC's when he decided he didn't like his BP and wing. As I recall Scuba446 (I might be wrong on this 'handle') was dreadfully abused when he converted 'back' from the BP arena.

Zealots is right...

 

[cyklon_300]

Unless I'm missing other posts, you appear to be the lone voice when it comes to posting derogatory things about BP/W setups.

Speaking of overselling, you have stated your dislike for them dozens of times...even in threads DEDICATED to discussing BP/W. Most regualr readers can cite from memory your tired litany of complaints (oh, those darn stiff harnesses)...You never miss an opportunity to chant your anti-BP mantra, but feel it appropriate to label satifisfied users of this gear as 'zealots.' Curious...

There must be something that compels such large numbers of BP users to recommend them...but I'm sure you'll simply ascribe it being under the influence of kool-aid rather than the fact that it is efficient, well-designed gear.

And for the record, I could give a rat's arse what equipment anyone else (besides my partners) dives with...

ps: Walter, your post was spot-on...

 

[Arnaud]

Opinions are meant to be debated.

I enjoyed both Seajay's article and Walter's post.