Freeflow MK25 s550

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Richiedemarco

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OK need help. I never had a free flow problem, then I got my regs serviced at my LDS. After the service I dove in Cozmel at 90 feet w/ a 3000psi alum 80.. no problems.. 3 weeks ago I dove in a quarry (that I have been in about 50 dives before with the same reglator set up steel 120 in 40 degree water). about 60 feet the reg slowly started to free flow, then completly free flowed. I pointed my face up.. hoping that the 1 inch of water pressure (sometimes works) will stop the free flow... it did not.. I made my way up an up line and managed the free flow. At the surface I shut the bottle off and turned it back on and the free flow stopped.

Went to my lds.. told them what happened.. they said just to turn the VIVA down and keep it more int he predive setting. Went out last weekend... in 40 degree water.. and about 60 feet and 15 minutes into the dive (same as before) the reg freeflowed. I switched to my pony and shut the bottle down for 3 minutes and turned it back on.. it was fine.. then again... it started to flow very slowly.. and built up to a full free flow. I went up to abort the dive and about 15 feet when I was doing a saftey stop the reg started operating normally.

Took it again to my lds and they said its icing.. that they need to de-tune the reg.. But can it ice up in 40 degree water? I thought it had to be 32 to ice? am I being dumb by saying that? I thought 32 was 32 was 32.. if you have 40 degree air rushing past your regulator, its still not cold enough to freeze. And on top of that.. water freezes at 32 degrees at one ata... so at 3 ata should it be even less than 32? When Water is under pressure the boiling point is higher and the freezing point is higher etc..???
 
There have been several reports of freeflows with MK25s (some 2nd stages more prone than others) on this board. Regarding freezing at 40F...do a web search on adiabatic processes. In a nutshell, as the breathing gas expands (3000 PSI/whatever in tank to the intermediate pressure) thermal energy is lost, so it certainly can reach 32F or lower.

Sean P
 
DA Aquamaster is a real technician about this matter. He also pointed out the freeflow problem on the second stage. But, I am suspicious that your LDS exactly knows what they are doing?
 
The Mk 25 does struggle with freeze-flows in extremely cold water - 40 degrees and below. The Thermal Insulation System (TIS) is just not quite adequate to transfer enough heat to keep ice from forming in the ambient chamber. Given that your reg is thawing on the way up, it is obviously just on the edge of freezing and in water another 5 degrees warmer you will not have the problem.

3000, 3300 and 3500 psi tanks aggravate the problem as the increased drop in pressure compared to a 2640,2474,2400 or 2250 psi tank increases the adibatic colling load placed on the regulator.

Switching to LP tanks is not real cost effective though so your best option would be to reduce the flow rate of the first stage slightly. This is done by reducing the intermediate pressure to 120 psi. If your LDS recently serviced the reg, they should be willing to do it for free.

The S600 second stage is notorious for developing a very slight freeflow during the dive due to ice formation in the air barrel itself that prevents the poppet from fully seating. This slight freeflow in turn aggravates the cooling load on the first stage and can precipitate a full blown freeflow. That scenario is consitent with what you describe as occurring. (a slight freeflow followed shortly therafter by a full blown freeflow.)

I have not heard of the problem as much with the S550, but then it is not quite as common. It is something that could potentially occur with any regulator with a plastic case and plastic air barrel that reduces heat transfer to the surrounding water.

Detuning the second stage makes it a bit more resistant to the development of a slight freeflow, but then it breathes harder so it is not something you want to do if you can avoid it.

There are however a few things you can try that will not affect regulator performance:

1) Remove or at least pull back the rubber hose cover that goes over the end of the LP hose and the inlet fitting on the second stage. The more metal exposed here the better as it will improve heat transfer and help "warm" the second stage orifice and poppet which live inside this inlet fitting. (I noticed this winter with an X650 in 35 degree water that if I left this hose cover in place the reg would spit little ice chips at me during the dive. Obviously an ice chip forming in the wrong place or not breaking away in time will precipitate a freeflow. Losing the cover solved the problem.)

2) The same thing goes for the hose protectors on the first stage. Remove them or pull them back enough to expose the metal hose fittings. This will increase heat transfer at least as much as those cute little fins on the swivel cap.

3) Another thing you can do is switch to a 7' hose. It creates more surface area in the hose that the air must pass through before reaching the second stage and it increases the potential for the air to warm slightly more than it would otherwise between the first and second stages.

I have never had problems with Mk 20's or 25's freezing up when used with D400 second stages (on short or long hoses) with 2475 psi tanks in water as cold as 33 degrees. But to cover my bets I have went back to using Mk 20 first stages with the older SPEC system using a filled ambient chamber covered with a rubber boot. The early SPEC boots were not great at retaining silicone and they had to be topped off now and then, The last SPEC boots made, were larger and wider and provided room for expansion so less silicone was lost.

Cross contamination during assembly is a problem where you are using Christolube inside the reg and silicone in the ambient chamber. But unless you are planning to use the reg with Nitrox greater than 40%, it is not something to worry about. Since my bottom mixes seldom exceeed 25% and the bottom temps below 100 ft here are in the upper 30's to low forties year round, I don't worry about it and prefer to sacrifice 100% O2 clean for the far greater cold water reliaility. With a Mk 20 so equipped, you can purge the entire contents of the tank in 35 degree water (forming a ball of ice around the first stage) and not freeze up the first stage. Bullet proof - but alas not Scubapro approved as they have moved entirely away from SPEC boots in favor of the less than perfect TIS system on the Mk 25.

It's hard to blame them for that as working on regs using silicone and Christolube both on the repair bench would contaminate the bench and the tools in short order with silicone and make it early impossible to service O2 clean regs in the average dive shop. But on the other hand you can also pack the ambient chambers with Christolube and SP could also find or develop a less expensive but suitable O2 compatible filler for the environmental chambers as well if they desired to do so.

It would be nice if they would at least make this an option for divers who want 100% reliability in extremely cold water and I am pretty sure most cold water divers would be willing to pay a bit more for the service.
 
Wow.... Another good informative post......!:wink:
 
Since Atomic seals the Ambient Chamber with Christolube I don't see whay ScubaPro doesn't follow suit and just admit for colder than 40 this is the solution.
 
Great advice.

I too have trouble with free flow due to cold in the winter.

Is this boot widely available from scubapro dealers?

I also looked into converting to a 7ft hose and was told by my LDS that it couldn't be done on a Mark 20 G500 with a USD (oldstyle yellow) octo on a short hose. I was told that it would cause the octo to continually freeflow if the IP was udjusted high enough to provide a usable pressure to the primary on a 7ft hose.

I also read the the bottom port has 15% more flow than a side port. Should I connect my 7ft hose to the bottom port. If so, would this provide enough flow to breath easily off both hoses, avoid free flow and not have to adjust the IP or detune the octo?

Is this true?

If not could you provide me with the information required to do the 7 ft hose conversion properly.

Sorry to ask on this thread but it seems close to the topic.
 
DA Aquamaster- Thanks for the help. This was driving me nuts. I Even ran my drysuit off my pony and tried to breathe nice and slow... not trying to put a huge load on the reg and it still free flowed. Will try the below and and mention the below to my LDS. So far they have been really great. Just was frustrated when I was looking forward to divng all week at work.. I sat for hours in a cubicle thinking of getting out in the water. I have to admit.. I feel pretty experienced in breathing off a free flow reg.. so it actually taught me some good experience. They teach you about this in the open water class I think its a 3 minute topic... but having about 70 dives under my belt, was not expecting this to happen. So I'm kinda glad it happened in a Lake at 60 feet instead off Nj in the Ocean.. THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP>> SAFE DIVING>
 
Someday someone is going to save and collate all of DA's posts like this, and make them required reading for scubapro techs.... you might consider printing this one out and bringing to your LDS. If they get in a huff, oh well. Probably they're good guys and will take care of this without a problem.

DA, a question. I assume my mk15 has the spec system and has been packed with Christolube, if I remember from an earlier post of yours. I actually might be in some pretty cold water this summer if I can make it out to Clear Lake in Oregon, right near where my sister lives. I also assume the metal case balanced adjustable 2nd stage would be better suited for really cold water than a modern plastic 2nd stage, correct?
 
trevinkorea:
Is this boot widely available from scubapro dealers.
As far as I know, SP no longer stocks SPEC boots since their big push toward the TIS kit. The last time I tried to orderd one (a couple years ago), I was advised they are no longer sold and that SP no longer recommends the use of environmental silicone and in fact recommends techs remove SPEC boots when the regs are serviced. I bought the two late production SPEC boots that I have on my primary and secondary Mk 20's from a dealer who still had them on the shelf and these are the last two new boots that I have seen.

I also looked into converting to a 7ft hose and was told by my LDS that it couldn't be done on a Mark 20 G500 with a USD (oldstyle yellow) octo on a short hose. I was told that it would cause the octo to continually freeflow if the IP was udjusted high enough to provide a usable pressure to the primary on a 7ft hose.
What? That is total BS. They must not have a 7' hose in stock. Find a new LDS.

Theoretically, there will be some resistance as the air flows through the hose due to turbulence, boundary layer effects etc, but the difference in flow rates between a 7' hose and a 24" hose would not even be measureable. So it makes no difference whether the hose is 7" or 7' long, it will have the same intermediate pressure at the end.

In fact, a 7' hose can actually help a reg with mediocre flow rates as the greater volume of the longer hose actually creates a reservoir of intermediate presure air to draw on during inhalation. The Scubapro Mk 16 for example uses an internal chamber in the first stage to store IP air to provide more reserve and improve responsiveness under high demand situations. The greater internal volume of a long hose does essentially the same thing but in a low tech way.

An older USD Octo on a short hose (or any downstream design octo for that matter) will work fine on a Mk 20/G500 as long as the octo is adjusted to operate at whatever IP your Mk 20 is running. Your Mk 20's IP will be somewhere between 120 and 145 psi - like almost every other first stage currently in production regardless of brand.) Again, find another LDS. They are either really, really, ignorant or they are lying to you.

I also read the the bottom port has 15% more flow than a side port. Should I connect my 7ft hose to the bottom port. If so, would this provide enough flow to breath easily off both hoses, avoid free flow and not have to adjust the IP or detune the octo?
The port on the end of the turret is in line with the air flowing through the piston so it is a straight shot and the flow rate is a bit higher. But this difference is relative and needs to be taken in context with everything else.

A Mk 20 or Mk 25 will flow about 300 SCFM if you hook it up to a 3000 psi tank, remove the end LP port and open the tank valve. So with a 15% reduction on one of the other 4 LP ports, you would "only" have a flow rate of about 255 SCFM. But to put that in perspective, the flow rate on a Mk 16 first stage is "only" 177 SCFM and it will deliver all the air you and your buddy will ever need.

A relatively low performing second stage can only flow about 35 SCFM while a high performance second stage can move 50 to 67 SCFM. So even with two divers fully depressing the purge buttons on two high performance second stages, you are only going to draw a maximum of 134 SCFM from the first stage. Even accounting for a decrease in flow rate at lower supply pressures and for increased viscosity effects at depth, you are still going to have way more flow rate than you need from whatever port you use on a Mk 20 or Mk 25. Real life breathing rates are a lot less so you could probably use a bunch of splitters and put a dozen divers on a single Mk 20 at 100 ft and still keep everyone well supplied.

If not could you provide me with the information required to do the 7 ft hose conversion properly.
Swapping the hose is fairly simple. You need to buy the hose, remove the old hose and replace it with the new one.

The connection at the first stage end of the hose requires an ordinary open end wrench of the proper size, or even a cresent wrench. Just remember that it loosens by turning counter clockwise (Lefty Loosey) and tightens by turning clockwise (Righty Tighty). When tightening, you only want what SP describes as "tool tight" which is just snugging the fitting up with a very slight amount of pressure on the wrench - just a little beyond hand tight. You can easily strip the threads in a brass first stage if you put to much muscle on the wrench and it is even easier to strip the threads on the aluminum UL first stages. If you are not expereinced with tools in general, I recommend choking up on the wrench with your hand right up next to the head of the wrench as this will limit the leverage you can put on the fitting with the wrench.

The connection at the regulator end of the hose is more difficult. SP uses a splined nut that requires a matching specialty tool. You can get a "Just a Wrench" from Peterbuilt Tools (http://www.scubatools.com/Scubapro.html) for $10.50 or a multitool fro $33.00. Or you can wrap some electrical tape around the splined nut and use a pair of pliers or vice grips. The tape will reduce the damage to nut but may not protect it completely. Same lefty loosey, righty tighty routine as ith the other nut.

There is also a splined nut on the second stage that secures the inlet fitting in the case and you want to be careful not to mess with that one. The hose nut jams against it so you want to be sure to only move the outside nut attached to the hose.

The long hose will have a normal hex nut fitting so an open end wrench or or cresent wrench will allow you to tighten it up. You again do not need to get it real tight, just a little bit past hand tight.
 
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