Free Diving and Force Fins

[Blair Mott]

Bob was so excited about this thread he wanted to share some photos of one of the Free Diving Fins he had made in 1999. So he took these pictures yesterday. He is looking forward to bringing the fin back into production and we will be talking more about this fin in the future! This has been a great post thanks Manfishmatt !!!

 

[OceanObsessed]

Which is one of the reasons that it has more than once been shown in scientific studies that a short flexible fin is more efficient than a long stiff blade.

There you go globalizing again. Who said that all longblades are stiff? My C4’s are pretty flexible. What good is selective research like this? Sounds like these scientific studies are comparing apples to oranges. There is nothing scientific about only comparing stiff long blades to flexible short blades when there are flexible longblades too. It is just marketing hype selectively manipulating variables to try and prove a point.

You keep touting that you ARE informed. Not all longblade fins are created equal. If you have not tried C4 Falcons then your globalized comparison of longblades to Force Fins is no more informed than mine is as never having tried Force Fins.

You state you are INFORMED and you come across as seeing everyone else as being uninformed. You indicate that all Jet Fin users are closed minded and misinformed, the whole freediving community appears to have missed the boat on the Force Fins, longblade fin manufacturers that use carbon fiber technology are misinformed regarding its efficiency and longblade fin manufacturers are misinformed for making long blade fins as opposed to short blade fins. You have admitted to having control issues with longblades, admitted to being biased, you stereotype others. It seems you are the only person around that is INFORMED. Do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously?

A proper long blade kick is not my problem…

You have already confessed to wiping out “untold amounts of coral” while wearing longblade fins in the other thread. You can’t blame the fins for that so you clearly have longblade “issues” but yet you expect people to find your research comparing longblades to Force Fins credible? You are contradicting yourself. All it takes is an improper kicking technique, or having bias (you have admitted to bias), to completely invalidate every single comparison test that you have ever done so please stop pretending to be doing credible research that makes you INFORMED. Statistically speaking your opinion, as is mine, is a sample size of one. A sample size of one is statistically insignificant. As for now, the market is the only statistically sound indicator as to the performance of the fins.

I simply stated my opinion, which all the Jet fin lovers have failed to agree with. too bad for them, if they would only try something new... can't help those who have closed minds about the world and are simply content to bash the opinions of those who do not agree with them

...and who just got done bashing all Jet Fin users because they dont agree with you ?

There you go globalizing again. All of us Jet Fin users are the same. I’ve read posts by other Jet Fin users who have tried other fins. I remember one in particular who tried Force Fins and gave his opinion of them. I am a Jet Fin user and I try new fins every chance I get. I see your mentality meesier42… globally stereotyping anyone that chooses a different fin as being closed minded. I have nothing against any Force Fin users, not even you. It's just your approach. Stereotyping others went out of style a long time ago


The OP asked if there are any advantages to using freedive specific fins over Force Fins. I agree with you on using the fin of your choice whether it is FF or any other brand for the situation. I don’t have a problem with people using Force Fins, or any other fin, for freediving as in your situation. I am one of the only freedivers that I know that will still occasionally wear an open foot pocket shortblade fin and I do it because it works for the particular situation that I am using it for; as you do. I, however, will not recommend these fins to someone wanting a good justification for using longblade fins with closed foot pockets for freediving as you do. It seems to frustrate you to hear any other opinions besides using Force Fins.

As I mentioned before, I have heard enough about Force Fins in the past to know they must be very good fins for certain situations. It is clear to me by reading other posts in this forum that Bob must be a remarkable guy for having such a following and I am sure that his products have something to do with it. I don't have a problem with Force Fins, or the people that use them it's just your approach is off. Keep on stereotyping Jet Fin users, contradicting yourself, manipulating variables and comparing apples to oranges to prove your point. I am sure that Force Fins already have their place in the market and don’t need this style (stereotyping, casting all Jet Fin users as closed minded,etc) of advertisement.

 

[castanagajt]

Haha, this thread has gotten so stupid that it is funny.

 

[castanagajt]

Great looking fin, Blair. That fin looks as if it highly resembles the SD-1's. It looks like it will cost boat loads more.

 

[Bob Evans]

I am really interested in all these comments. You would never find this type of interaction going on in the pay for advertising magazines. I will have Blair put up more photo's of some cool freediving fins I have developed in the last 30 years. Let's all be positive since we all have alot to offer... and I was given the first pairs of jet fins when I was 16 years old and dove those fins for over 20 years.. and that's why I developed the force fin. Those vents do nothing for performance other than be a drag. Sorry but that is true. I still feel the Jet Fin is one of the better performing fin's in the market. My dad always states " He who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

 

[OceanObsessed]

Haha, this thread has gotten so stupid that it is funny.

castanagajt , I totally agree with you and I am surprised with myself for getting so caught up with it. I think that both meesier42 are I are good at pushing eachothers buttons .

FinDoctor,
I didn't realize you were the developer of the fins. I honestly hope to try a pair some day to see first hand what all the talk is about.

I'm glad we could provide some entertainment for you

 

[meesier42]

There you go globalizing again. Who said that all longblades are stiff? My C4’s are pretty flexible. What good is selective research like this? Sounds like these scientific studies are comparing apples to oranges. There is nothing scientific about only comparing stiff long blades to flexible short blades when there are flexible longblades too. It is just marketing hype selectively manipulating variables to try and prove a point.

Its not selective studies, it simple engineering, if you calculate the Froude number which predicts the hydrodynamic effciency. This was been validated in multiple studies. short fin will have a much higher efficency, as compared to anything that is longer, more flexible or stiffer.

You keep touting that you ARE informed. Not all longblade fins are created equal. If you have not tried C4 Falcons then your globalized comparison of longblades to Force Fins is no more informed than mine is as never having tried Force Fins.

except that I never said that C4 fins were bad fins, nor have I have said they are not well suited for their purpose. My informed opinions are based on expirience and trials. your are based on casual observation, which qualifies my comments (which intentionally avoid speaking to fins I have not used) are informed, where yours are not.

You state you are INFORMED and you come across as seeing everyone else as being uninformed.

The fact that you have never used FF's by definition means your opinion on the quality and effciency of FF's is uninformed.

You indicate that all Jet Fin users are closed minded and misinformed, the whole freediving community appears to have missed the boat on the Force Fins, longblade fin manufacturers that use carbon fiber technology are misinformed regarding its efficiency and longblade fin manufacturers are misinformed for making long blade fins as opposed to short blade fins. You have admitted to having control issues with longblades, admitted to being biased, you stereotype others. It seems you are the only person around that is INFORMED. Do you expect anyone to take your opinions seriously?

I don't recall using the word misinformed. nor did I say that the Freediving community missed the boat. I do believe they may be missing something and anxiously await the day that they adopt ForceFins and their feedback helps guide Bob into creating the next truly great freediving fin. I strongly believe this because if you look at the freediving fins, there has not really been a single new innovation in the fins in many many year. Sure they have changed and improved materials, flex zones, fit, etc.. but when was the last time that someone reinvented the wheel and made everyone question why didn't we think of this before. All that said, the existing fins are very good, I have never said that wasn't true, just that a completely new idea may be the shot in the arm that the next generation of freedivers are looking for.

You can’t blame the fins for that so you clearly have longblade “issues” but yet you expect people to find your research comparing longblades to Force Fins credible? You are contradicting yourself. All it takes is an improper kicking technique, or having bias (you have admitted to bias), to completely invalidate every single comparison test that you have ever done so please stop pretending to be doing credible research that makes you INFORMED. Statistically speaking your opinion, as is mine, is a sample size of one. A sample size of one is statistically insignificant. As for now, the market is the only statistically sound indicator as to the performance of the fins.

My personal testing was primarly done in a long course (50meter) pool and conducting speed test for time, distance test for endurance both with and without scuba gear. My testing clearly validated the ForceFins as they won every category that I was measuring. Nearly all of my testing was done before I was a staunch ForceFin user. I was actually doing much of this testing to validate in my own mind if they were actually better, but with a sample size of 1 the results are not as objective as I would like for statisical validation.

This is exactly why I intend to get a group of divers (all non ForceFin divers) together this summer and conduct some testing. I am working on putting together a series of fins for testing. I already have a series of ForceFins, Mares Avanti Quattro's, Apollo Bio-Fins. I am trying to locate a pair of Jets, perhaps some freediving fins, maybe even Mor-Fins if I can find someone who has a pair. My intention is to conduct quarry dives (no current or waves) in a fashion similar to what Rodales ScubaDiving did last year.

...and who just got done bashing all Jet Fin users because they dont agree with you ?

other than saying that they have not even tried FF's and have no problems dismissing them as inferior, I have not bashed them or their fins.

There you go globalizing again. All of us Jet Fin users are the same. I’ve read posts by other Jet Fin users who have tried other fins. I remember one in particular who tried Force Fins and gave his opinion of them. I am a Jet Fin user and I try new fins every chance I get. I see your mentality meesier42… globally stereotyping anyone that chooses a different fin as being closed minded. I have nothing against any Force Fin users, not even you. It's just your approach. Stereotyping others went out of style a long time ago

based on 10 years of diving ForceFins, loaning them to anyone interested enough to try them, and convincing all but one of them to buy a pair. Each of them gave me the same observations. At first they were skeptical, by the end of the second dive they were interested, by the end of the 4th to 5th dive they were sold. The one that didn't buy a pair used them once and said, "I don't feel like I am going anywhere" and refused to use them again. But with that one exception, I have sold over 25 pairs to friends, including 1 that simply refused to return my fins.

The OP asked if there are any advantages to using freedive specific fins over Force Fins. I agree with you on using the fin of your choice whether it is FF or any other brand for the situation. I don’t have a problem with people using Force Fins, or any other fin, for freediving as in your situation. I am one of the only freedivers that I know that will still occasionally wear an open foot pocket shortblade fin and I do it because it works for the particular situation that I am using it for; as you do. I, however, will not recommend these fins to someone wanting a good justification for using longblade fins with closed foot pockets for freediving as you do. It seems to frustrate you to hear any other opinions besides using Force Fins.

As I mentioned before, I have heard enough about Force Fins in the past to know they must be very good fins for certain situations. It is clear to me by reading other posts in this forum that Bob must be a remarkable guy for having such a following and I am sure that his products have something to do with it. I don't have a problem with Force Fins, or the people that use them it's just your approach is off. Keep on stereotyping Jet Fin users, contradicting yourself, manipulating variables and comparing apples to oranges to prove your point. I am sure that Force Fins already have their place in the market and don’t need this style (stereotyping, casting all Jet Fin users as closed minded,etc) of advertisement.

First, I don't see where I have contradicted myself. I believe that I have been very consistent in my statements. Second, lets look back that the OP, his question as

I have been a Force Fin diver for many years now and I can attest to their superiority in heavy work load scuba/rebreather applications. But what about free diving? The traditional free diving fins I have seen are full foot pocket long relatively stiff fins. Does anyone know what are the advantages/disadvantages of this type of fin versus a Force Fin in free diving situations.

and you responded..

The long blades on freediving fins are more efficient and the closed foot pocket is more streamlined and does not catch water like an open heel fin. When freediving you will defintely be able to move through the water faster with long blade free diving fins.

Of course you can also freedive with open heel fins you will just get more of a workout .

Actually, when I go to the Bahamas for freediving I still bring scubapro jet fins because we will sometimes swim to rocky islands and take our fins off and explore the islands. The scuba booties are great for walking over rocky islands.

which fails to answer the question of the advantages/disadvantages, and jumps to the conclusion that they FF's are not appropriate.
I did my best to say, the advantages are the same advantages that he is already familar with and due to these they will be very good for freediving.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....
I have to start by saying I appreciate you open minded opinion. I also understand why you would use freediving fins (cheap or not) for scuba. as this is the fin style that you are used to, and exercise theory shows us that when you practice one style of exercise you will become more acclimated to that style and your muscles will become more effcient at performing that exercise. Changing your fins for scuba would invariably change your kick style and most likely negatively affect your freediving performance, which I think if your primary goal. If you were to do an extended test of the FF line for swimming/scuba/freediving you "may" find you like them, then again, you have very specific goals and you may not.

.

I have used many different fins for scuba diving and decided that XL SP jet fins were very good for me (after about 15 or 20 years of diving). Great tech divers use them and I figured it was good enough for me.. Good enough for years...I used to freedive with them to depths of around 40-50 feet sometimes in cold water with 24 lbs of lead on..

But it all ended one day when I was scuba spearing with a buddy and we were not finding fish and we ended up just cruising along at a decent pace hunting. After about 5-8 minutes, he was just kicking my butt. He was swimming faster, easier and without breathing as hard. I was larger and stronger (so the scuba gear should have been less of a hinderance for me), but he was probably in a little better shape. It was this dive, that convinced me that I had to try the long fins. I am completely convinced that they move me more efficiently than jet fins. The large fins are a complete pain in the azz on the boat, but their performance underwater justifies their use (usually). Sometimes when using a scooter, I will wear jet fins, because I am not kicking much.

with regard to testing of the speed with fins, this is probably not that relevant. I honestly think I can swim FASTER with the scuba pro fins (if I use a very short, quick fin stroke), but it is not sustainable. A scuba diver and a freediver want the optimal "gear ratio" to move at a reasonably slow pace with the least effort. Freedivers do need power to come off the bottom, but in general, both types of divers are only putting a small fraction of their maximum muscular potential into swimming. It ain't about speed, it is about efficiency.

I swim twice a week in a pool with a pretty well defined workout doing freestyle sprints and slow underwater swims (all with freedive fins). Send me a pair or two to try out. I will honestly test them. (I have over a dozen pair of fins, I won't steal them and will honestly report my experience).

 

[meesier42]

Great tech divers use them and I figured it was good enough for me..

sure, but some of the top tech divers in the world use ForceFins for the same purpose, to drop names, John Chatterton, Hal Watts, Jonathan Bird and many many others. not to mention they have been selected as the sole source fin supplier for the Ocean Futures Society (Jean Michael Cousteau's dive team).

But it all ended one day when I was scuba spearing with a buddy and we were not finding fish and we ended up just cruising along at a decent pace hunting. After about 5-8 minutes, he was just kicking my butt. He was swimming faster, easier and without breathing as hard. I was larger and stronger (so the scuba gear should have been less of a hinderance for me), but he was probably in a little better shape. It was this dive, that convinced me that I had to try the long fins. I am completely convinced that they move me more efficiently than jet fins. The large fins are a complete pain in the azz on the boat, but their performance underwater justifies their use (usually). Sometimes when using a scooter, I will wear jet fins, because I am not kicking much.

I think that you may find the same thing happening all over again if you dive with me.

with regard to testing of the speed with fins, this is probably not that relevant. I honestly think I can swim FASTER with the scuba pro fins (if I use a very short, quick fin stroke), but it is not sustainable. A scuba diver and a freediver want the optimal "gear ratio" to move at a reasonably slow pace with the least effort. Freedivers do need power to come off the bottom, but in general, both types of divers are only putting a small fraction of their maximum muscular potential into swimming. It ain't about speed, it is about efficiency.

Well, I often speak to speed since speed is something that all of us are familar with and is easily measured. If I knew a simple easy way to measure effciency without a flume tank and lots of other high end gear, please let me know. But your correct speed is worthless if you can't sustain it, I can attest (for what is worth) with ForceFins, you absolutely can maintain a high speed for long periods of time.

If you want to test a set of ForceFins, call them up, 1-800-FIN-SWIM and buy a pair, you have 30 days to test them, if you don't like them, Bob will buy them back from you and you'll be out nothing and you'll probably be up a set of fins, as I doubt you'll return them. I recommend that you start with Pro's or the Excellerators.

 

[OceanObsessed]

meesier42,
This could go on for weeks. I could refute everything that you have said and then you can do the same and so on. This could go on forever so I guess we will just have to agree to politely disagree. I don't think that your research is going to convince me of anything and I don't think my opinions are going to convince you of anything either.

I too would love to try a pair. That is the only way that I will be convinced. If they are as good as what you guys say then you could potentially convert two long blade fin fans to Force Fin fans. It's a great oppourtunity for Force Fins. I don't think I am wrong with my opinions but I have been confident before about things and lost money on bets so I would be willing to give it a shot. I have used Jet Fins for 30 years simply because I have never had a reason to change them. I am not sold that they are the best. It would not surprise me if one of your Force Fins outperformed my Jets but I am very skeptical that any one of them would outperform the C4's.