Forgive my ignorance please.

[MichiganScott]

Please forgive my ignorance; I really don’t know the rules about this.

I thought all underwater wrecks were kind of like a preserve, and shouldn’t be disturbed, and kept pristine. I’ve heard differing views on the subject, but what is actually ok and what is not?

 

[covediver]

since you are from Michigan I would direct you to the Michigan Underwater Preserves website that talks about pilferage of items from wrecks within preserves. It is pretty straight forward.
About Michigan Underwater Preserves

As far as wrecks outside preserves, these are governed by various state laws, federal laws and regualtions which often declare that wrecks imbedded in state bottom lands or submerged lands and older than a certain threshold (seems to be 50 years in a lot of jurisdictions) are subject to the same protections as wrecks within parks and reserves.

Removal of artifacts engenders a lively debate among salvors and preservationists. The thing that casual salvors seem to forget when they utter the famous words "finders keepers" is that marine salvage is subjects to a legal process within federal courts and people who just take artifacts outside of that process are outlaws anyway you slice it.

As far as casual salvors go, once an artifact is removed from a site, they deny anyone coming after them the experience of discoverey that they themselves prize so dearly. you will hear a lot of rationalization from the thieves about preservation and making these artifacts available to a wider non-diving audience. Some folks do that, but for the most part it is a bunch of hooey.

 

[fsa]

Personally, I love to swim through and around wrecks just to see. I do have friends and acquaintances who love to bring things back. I've even seen one guy using a baby sledge attempting to dislodge a brass prop from a torpedo! As previously stated, different areas have different rules. Most are unrestricted, while others are heavily to the contrary. The USS Monitor comes to mind, which was a protected NOAA site. Illegal to dive except by special permit. Expensive special permit, I should say. Some are in the "should not go inside" range, like sunken u-boats left behind by patrolling german crews off the atlantic coast.

In my part of the world, the carolina coast is very popular as the gulf stream comes close enough to shore, the continental shelf is relatively shallow, and there are plenty of wrecks there. Anything 120fsw and shallower is well picked over. Below 140 or so, not so much. I remember visiting the Naeco one fall (she lies at about 150fsw) and while everything was in shades of blue, lots of stuff went "clink" when struck together.

I know of one person in particular who used to go inside a german u-boat with a gear bag. He would shovel muck into the bag, then feel his way out and let the currents sift the muck back out of the bag. He found interesting things lie board-game pieces, and I think a cup or two.

So, the right thing to do is consider where you are diving, and on what. Make sure of local laws and such. Then find what moves you. My personal favorite is to take pictures at most, but as I said, usually I just love to drift through it.

Just my two cents.

 

[rivalpc]

Most of the information on the wrecks preservation rules should be on file with the local state park or waterway dept right?

 

[HomelessDiver]

I can easily see how this would be a lively debate although I would not use the term 'thieves' unless it was in a legal sense.

Perhaps the question is only relevant to what is being taken vs diving. I can not think of a single dive site in the world where people go down, look at all the gold coins or other extreme valuables, and say... awww, isnt this nice. Generally speaking, its only treasure to the first people to find it (or the governments that claim it and remove it themselves). Stuff like propellers or wall mounted fittings/gauges, cannons.... yea, those would be on my personal 'no take' list because they do tend to diminish the dive site as a whole.

But if its a new find, then its not even a dive site yet. I guess a person would have to be staunchly against all treasure hunting to unilaterally say 'no'. If its a known dive site then we can imagine it as an underwater museum and people taking from those would easily be diminishing the site. On those sites, there's usually known history around them.

If a storm uncovered new stuff or shifted a boat to reveal a secret golden medallion, well... that medallion would have no bearing on the dive site anyway other than to add to its history. If its something like gold, jewelry, really valuable treasure stuff --- I cant imagine anyone would just hover there and stare at it in admiration similar to a scene from Titanic.

now, claiming legal ownership of said medallion would be the tricky part. Look at what Spain has been trying to lay its hands on for the past year.

...just my 2 dublooms worth...

 

[captainfizz]

The truth is, in a place like the Great Lakes the wrecks are usually in deeper cold water which is pretty good for preservation. We here in Florida have a different situation. I live in the Keys, and most of our wrecks are a lot older than those in the Great Lakes. The good ones here were mostly sunk by storms, and being made of wood were mostly torn apart in shallow water, high energy. Many are scattered for miles, every storm makes it worse for them. I have worked on many, legally worked. The Spanish Galleon cargo consisted of Gold, Silver, Copper, and many of them carried Mercury used to make better Silver coins. Every thing on this list is toxic to the Marine environment, except gold. There were tons of silver, and copper on board. Silver will oxidize and dissapear forever after a time. I have many examples of what we call razor blades. Small pieces of silver that used to be coins, but would have dissapeared forever if not for picking them out of the ocean. Copper is very bad. I don't have to tell you what would happen if you droped a piece of copper in your fishtank. The fish would go belly up. The salvage needs to be done ASAP if we are to save whats left. You can argue about it till the cows come home, but one thing we do have right now is the ability to recover and stableize. That much is certain. These wrecks are scattered for miles, and no amount of study will gleen much information. Tallahassee is now trying to put the private sector out of business. If this happens the Taxpayers will not hold still for a group of Bureaucrats going Treasure Hunting. More burden on us Taxpayers. All of the wrecks I am talking about here wrecked after Columbus made his voyage of discovery. Everything we want to know about them is available for study. The Spanish were very good record keepers. Also the English, Dutch, and French. We already know about them. What does Archaeology have to do with these wrecks? Nothing. Archaeology need to be done in the Mediterranean where indeed many of the wrecks are ancient. We have no ancient wrecks in the Western Hemmisphere. If one jumps up they can have it. There is much more to say. I will be at DEMA in booth #4833. Carl Fismer

 

[wreckvalle]

Please remember that it was the recreational diver that researched and identified the majority of shipwrecks that we all enjoy. That identification was made possible from the artifacts they recovered. What many do not realize is the destructive power of Mother Nature. Im talking salt water wrecks. In my opinion as many artifacts as possible should be recovered and preserved from these wrecks before they are destroyed by Mother Nature.

Think about it. Some will have you belive that these items are preserved on the bottom. If that were the case maybe we shoud throw all our National Treasure into the ocean for safe keeping! I have seen portholes crushed, and china destroyed by storms.

Recreational divers should be praised whenever they are able to save one of these items from the sea.

You mentioned the Monitor. If you remember it was always the sport diver that wanted to recover items it preserve them. NOAA in the past wanted to leave everything on the bottom. Only a few years ago NOAA basically agreed with rec divers by recovering items from the Monitor.

SHIPWRECK DIVING  By Capt  Dan Berg

 

[Randy43068]

Please forgive my ignorance; I really don’t know the rules about this.

I thought all underwater wrecks were kind of like a preserve, and shouldn’t be disturbed, and kept pristine. I’ve heard differing views on the subject, but what is actually ok and what is not?

They actually are preserves. All wrecks belong to the state in who's waters they rest.

I can dig out the law if you want to read it.

 

[NOVIZWHIZ]

when I first read this and the comment about diver thieves I kinda let it go - my avatar shows me with one of a number of bottles I've recovered (along with a lot of other stuff) over my diving career - I'm licensed by the state as a hobby diver - report any finds directly to the state with drawings and photographs along with all pertinent details..I don't dive for money and have never sold anything I've found....actually turned down 6-7 thousand dollars for a couple of pieces... I have a private collection that the state knows about and is welcome to photograph, study or display if they want...several are one-of a kind items. A lot of these very fragile artifacts (like bottles) are in danger of being destroyed by natural and man-made processes. When I'm gone, prob have the jist of it donated to the state or local museum.

 

[captainfizz]

They actually are preserves. All wrecks belong to the state in who's waters they rest.

I can dig out the law if you want to read it.

Dig it out I'd like to read it. Fizz