'Forced Refresher Courses' in Cebu??

[chillyinCanada]

If the interesting and amusing interpretation is accurate (and it certainly rings true for me) then no problem. BUT if it turns out that the government is actually requiring a recertification/10 hour refresher, I stand with flots and co.

 

[exposure]

With all interpretations in this post, it could be very interesting to read about the application by Local Dive Shops.

 

[flots am]

Wow. That is pretty special. You have know idea even about the location of the place but you're saying that.You don't like the fact that the government wants to add rules to keep you safe? Then stay out of Europe and the US and Australia then!!Unfortunately in this case the government are trying to do something without discussion with the industry pros who could help them come up with realistic safety recommendations. But it seems slightly snobish to bin the place from your future travel on the basis of this.I am positive that what it says is that you have to have had 10hrs of training and be certified to dive. So anyone who has completed their OW or above is in the clear.

Seems pretty obvious to me. Instructors are assumed to have much more than 10 hours of training:

“If the divers are professionals and they are diving not related to scuba school diving activities but for leisure, pleasure, entertainment, research they should also comply with the 10 hour requirement."

From the text, instructors are also apparently required to dive with a DM.

flots.


---------- Post added February 18th, 2013 at 05:22 PM ----------

wtf???

Unless the posted text is simply wrong, I don't plan on going anywhere that requires a 10 hour class before diving.

Want to see me hover, clear my mask, share air, change a tank underwater, blow rings, shoot a lift bag or do CPR? Not a problem.

Want me to waste an entire day and part of the evening while I'm on vacation? No thanks. I'll go somewhere else.

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

Law and legislation is determined by interpretation. We can sit and discuss our interpretations of the proposed ordinance all day long, but what matters is how the Cebu authorities will interpret it... and how it will be enforced. The enforcement of legislation in the Philippines is sketchy at best; quite often laws are simply ignored - both by the people and the authorities.

When laws are directly applicable to foreigners/expats etc, they tend to get a lot more use.... after all, fining "westerners" is fair game for some illicit income. Any vague or badly worded legislation/ordinance imposed in the Philippines makes me shudder. They create loop-holes for corruption and are open to abuse by less-than-fair officials.

This article: Safety gear, trained scuba divers mulled in sports measure does state the following, which helps clear up some of the issues (maybe):

Mayor Sitoy said that a foreigner, before going diving, must be certified by the hotel or dive shop operator that he has complied with the requirements under Section 4 of the proposed ordinance.

Under this requirement, a diver must have completed at least 10 hours of combined classroom and pool water training conducted by a duly certified diving instructor.


Daanbantayan municipal administrator Mamerto RodrigoRodrigo said that the local government must be the one to collect the penalties under Section 6. He said this should be an “administrative fine” instead of a “judicial fine.”


PB member Arleigh Sitoy, sponsor of the proposed ordinance, said he would welcome all suggestions.

So, just to play the interpretation game:


"no diver may be allowed to join any open water diving activity without completing 10 hours of combined classroom and pool water training activities."

EITHER:

A. Every diver must complete a 10-hour 'refresher' course prior to scuba diving.

OR:

B. Every diver must have completed a minimum 10-hour course of training prior to open water diving (theory + confined).

AND/OR:

C. Discover Scuba Diving must contain at least 10 hours of pre-open water instruction. In reality, this makes DSD unworkable. Customers may as well do a full certification course (i.e. Scuba Diver).


"The trainings to be done by a certified diving instructor and dive master should also include proper use, preventive maintenance and care of diving equipment and demonstration of first aid, mouth-to-mouth and CPR capabilities."

EITHER:

A, All divers must have completed additional EFR/CPR training (or equiv) before being allowed to dive.

AND POSSIBLY:

B. All divers must have completed Equipment Specialist training in preventative scuba maintenance training before being allowed to dive.... as it is debatable whether the Open Water course provides specific training on 'preventative maintenance'.


"Divers must also be told about diving hazards related to the marine animals present and terrain of the area."

This is more clear - a full dive briefing, including local hazards needs to be given before diving


"Penalties for violation of the ordinance is pegged at P5,000 or imprisonment of at least one year upon the discretion of the court."

"Hey Joe... you pay now!"

However, a "discretionary non-receiptable administrative payment" of a lesser amount, directly to the official concerned may be the acceptable to avoid the inconvenience of court proceedings..


“If the divers are professionals and they are diving not related to scuba school diving activities but for leisure, pleasure, entertainment, research they should also comply with the 10 hour requirement."

EITHER:A. A dive professional diving in a non-employed function (fun diving) must also have completed 10 hours of classroom and confined water training - having completed a standard Open Water course at some point. The aim of which is to prevent 'unqualified divers' (self-trained) working as divemaster or fraudulently offering hoax lessons (it happens).

OR:

B. A dive professional is not exempt from the requirement to conduct 10 hours of refresher training prior to conducting any open water fun (non-working) dives.


"They should also be accompanied by a diving master. No one is also allowed to dive alone as the ordinance also requires a diving buddy."

No solo diving.


"Those operating scuba diving schools must also present a valid license from a government agency."

This probably refers to PCSSD (Philippines Commission on Sports Scuba Diving) accreditation. They are the body, lodged under the Department of Tourism, through which all scuba operators are supposed to license as operators. Historically, they seemed to have just taken money from dive centers and professionals, doing little in return. Some of their regulations were also a bureaucratic mess. They seem to be getting re-vamped however.

Bohol (the island next to Cebu) enacted a similar ordinance upon scuba diving, but wisely chose to simplify this legislation by 'enforcing compliance with existing PCSSD legislation'. See here: Bohol To Regulate Scuba Operators

 

[Karl_H]

This is lifted from another recent thread which discussed an unfortunate death occurring when a DM seemed to be exploiting the apparent loophole between 'confined open water' conditions and actual confined water conditions - I think this is a MASSIVE clue as to why the 10 hour rule is suggested, too many people claim tropical house reef areas are just 'confined open water'.

It was a shore dive. Not for boat dive, and in Asia, you can do DSD in any house reef

there's a lot islands with warm water. That's common, we seldom provide DSD in swimming pool etc unless the customers are panic or they take dsd in mainland.

If anyone is stupid enough to push through a law which will have a major impact on tourism, in an area with tourism as a major source of income, then I don't think they would be in a position of power for very long - certainly in the Philippines these days anyway.

Personally, I think it's a very good idea, although ironically it excludes Mactan/Lapu Lapu where most of the loophole exploration actually happens.... I'd more than welcome the same action over in Anilao.

 

[DevonDiver]

Personally, I think it's a very good idea,....

I'd agree too... but it legislation needs to come from a basis of working with the dive industry, not against it. Consultation between the law-makers and the scuba training community is the key.

To be honest, the only legislation that needs to exist is something along the lines of:

1) Scuba operations and professionals must be affiliated with a globally recognized scuba training agency.
2) The membership, teaching, operational and safety standards of that agency must be complied with explicitly.
3) Any person teaching or supervising diving activities must possess an appropriate agency qualification and renewed membership for activities undertaken.

K.I.S.S. - The scuba agencies have got it covered. Authorities need only ensure that dive operators/pros are adhering to their agency standards. This doesn't place unrealistic demands on the industry, yet works effectively to illegitimize the cowboys. The agencies have standards that balance the business needs of operators (i.e. promote profitability and, in this context, develop tourism), whilst confirming customer safety - on the basis that standards are developed to robustly protect liability in more litigious societies..

Local authorities, or even the PCSSD, need only consult with local members (or even the varied local scuba agency reps) to ensure compliance with those standards. Of course, that'd mean an acceptance and admission that they, the authorities, weren't necessarily subject-matter experts on scuba operations...... an acceptance that is typically unforthcoming.

Writing legislations from scratch, without robust consultation with those who are knowledgable and actively involved in the activity will inevitably lead to all manner of loop-holes and unworkable requirements. For instance, if Dive Pros are obligated to dive with a DM... do all training courses now need to have DM assistance?

They tried to write legislations in Thailand. The wording of that effectively made it illegal to run entry-level training (to para-phrase: "all divers must be fully qualified before diving is allowed"...). It's silly, but it happens. Consultation with both the agencies and industry participants is key...

 

[Centrals]

.... although ironically it excludes Mactan/Lapu Lapu where most of the loophole exploration actually happens....

Divers can ONLY dive in Mactan in the whole Cebu Province without the necessity of extra "training"!!!!
I wonder why?
Any 'collaboration' between the two parties?
Any legislature that openly favour certain party is fishy!

 

[R-balljunkie]

perhaps a tagalog to english mistranslation. Filipinos are famous for their wordiisms and excessive usage of acronyms ..this may fall into the category of too much language. these islands depend on tourism dollars and dont want or need to alienate people from visiting.

I personally think its a good thing to discourage the rank amateurs from attempting to dive in the Philippines because they may perceive there's a laxed environment. Safety is paramount over the almighty dollar. the last thing i want to read is about an accidental drowning related to diving anywhere.

A simple flash of your PADI card should suffice.

C

 

[DevonDiver]

....dont want or need to alienate people from visiting.

Nonetheless, they do a remarkably good job of it. LMAO

 

[Centrals]

.... these islands depend on tourism dollars and dont want or need to alienate people from visiting.

YES to the first part and a BIG NO for the 2nd!!!!!
All the International Airports in the country are tourists UNFRIENDLY.