Forced descent in Blue Hole

[Christi]

Summer 2002. Not that long ago.

R

Yeh, not thtat long ago...I was wondering if maybe they've changed some procedures since then. I definitely don't agree with encouraging new divers to dive beyond their limits.

 

[Christi]

Tell me who they are so I will make sure to never dive with them. All of my experiences in Coz have been positive with safety-oriented dive operations. It's my favorite place to dive.

I know who you dive with and I don't think you'll EVER have to worry about that as long as you stick with that shop at least I think I know who you've dove with on your last couple of trips

I'm not going to name shops...an intelligent diver can figure out if they are dealing with a safety oriented shop or one that just puts divers in the water.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've posted my Blue Hole experience elsewhere on this board so it won't be news to some of you...

I dove with Amigos Del Mar and we had 2 DMs for 12 divers. The group included myself and my then husband with our whopping 7 post-cert dives, a guy doing his VERY FIRST post-cert dive (with a camera) and a bunch of other people. The group made it to 147' with at least one guy below that.

The only person who was not allowed to do the dive was the new certs girlfriend because she only got her Scuba Diver card, not a full OW card. She was allowed to do the other 2 dives that day that both maxed in the 80-100' range.

There are so many things wrong with this scenario that it still gives me chills. I take responsibility for doing the dive to some extent, but when you're being told that "sure, it's an advanced dive, but you guys are fine" it's easy to want to believe that. With that few dives I really had no concept what "advanced" meant when applied to a dive site. We were just diving!

Turns out that ADM had lost a diver in the hole the week before. I don't actually know if the body was ever recovered or what happened in that incident.

I'm not really sure what I want anyone to do about it, but I'm still horrified that anyone let me do that dive. If one person had said, "look, by 'advanced' we mean more that you've got" I'd have stayed home and been happy. I wasn't just allowed to do the dive, I was encouraged to do the dive, that's where I get a little angry.

Rachel

I don't know that I want any one to do anything about it and nobody is more against having scuba police than I am. Whether or not some dive op is able to stay in business also isn't a big concern of mine one way or the other. A divers safety is up to the diver but the divers don't always seem to understand that and leave their safety in the hands of the DM. However, since, based on all (or most) of my training and experience, I disagree with the way these dive are sometimes done, I freely give my opinion about how I think they should be done. A couple of agencies think (or thought) that I'm qualified to teach diving in those depth ranges and a bit deeper. I'm not charging anything and it seems as useful a way as any to spend my time on the board. Any one reading this is of course free to do the dive anyway they want.

 

[TheRedHead]

I know who you dive with and I don't think you'll EVER have to worry about that as long as you stick with that shop at least I know who you've dove with on your last couple of trips

I'm not going to name shops...an intelligent diver can figure out if they are dealing with a safety oriented shop or one that just puts divers in the water.

I'm getting in tech diving now and am looking for a shop that would do the deeper sites with staged deco, but not 200+ feet. Not looking for macho tech diving, but better planning, longer dives at depth. PM me if you know anyone who does those dives. I don't want to have to rent a private boat.

 

[lamont]

Are there safer ways to do a dive to 130'? Absolutely - adding more gas and some redundancy would make it safer.

Are you crazy to make this dive with an AL80? I don't think so.

I did this dive as a fairly new diver with pretty average air consumption and returned to the boat with well over 1000 psi. Barring a catestrophic (and very rare) event, I don't think it's crazy for anyone with a cool head, reasonable air consumption and good buoyancy skills to do the dive. You are welcome to disagree with me and welcome to dive (or not dive) the site in whatever manner you wish. What you are not welcome to tell me is that I can't decide for myself whether this is a safe dive and a reasonable plan, which is what I think you guys are trying to do.

Yeah, its crazy to do this dive on an Al80. A free-flowing reg at depth is going to really ruin your day.

I'm sure it looks perfectly safe as long as nothing goes wrong though.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yeah, its crazy to do this dive on an Al80. A free-flowing reg at depth is going to really ruin your day.

I'm sure it looks perfectly safe as long as nothing goes wrong though.

All dives are safe when nothing goes wrong.

 

[dherbman]

All dives are safe when nothing goes wrong.

But, something going wrong doesn't have to mean being unsafe.

 

[D_O_H]

Two quick things:

Biscuit7's experience sounds like almost the exact opposite of what I experienced with ADM. Had I been on a dive like what B described, I would have been quite pissed and would be dragging ADMs name through the mud wherever I could. I'd like to think I would have seen the writing on the wall before we even got in the water on that dive and aborted, but in all likelihood I would have done the dive anyway and tried to stay out of the way of the oncoming cluster. For the record, I am not at all in favor of dives like B's dive being carried out and if ADM is really carrying out dives like this, I should quit defending them.

As far as the 130' on an 80 argument goes, I agree that if anything hits the fan at that depth, it's going to be a bad situation. Not a certain death sentence, especially with a good buddy and cool easy-breathing heads (and maybe some hang tanks!), but definitely not a happy place. My only point is that reasonable people can differ as to whether the risk with this plan is an acceptable one.

And Christi: I agree that you guys can (and should, for your own best interests) refuse to let anyone dive if you feel they are a danger to themself or others. I just don't think divers should be excused from thinking for themselves because they think it's the dive ops job to police whether they're ready for a dive.

 

[Zeeman]

I've heard of dive leaders not wasting a bunch of divers time waiting on someone who is overly needy but I've never heard of a dive briefing that went like that.

You didn't miss much, lots of better dives than the blue hole in that area.

Manta bowl at Ticao was similar. the reason for the quick descent there si that the current rips along, and if you don't descend quick, you miss the submerged island (or the Manta Bowl) and get carried into deep water, and your dive is wasted.

It is also explained that experienced divers only should apply.

Z...

 

[Web Monkey]

it is still an advanced dive and hearing that you should return to the boat if you have problems shouldn't be a surprise to anyone considering it.

The entire concept of "Advanced Dive" should be scrapped.

Operators should describe the dives in specific terms like:

"This is a 140' dive into an overhead environment. You will need to descend immediately and as quickly as possible to the entrance, or return to the boat. There is no margin for error. The dive may exceed your NDL or your gas supply if your SAC rate is more than xxx."

"This is a 50' dive in moderate viz and moderate-to-low currrent, to a mostly rusted out barge".

I've heard both of these described as "Advanced", although there's clearly a big difference.

Terry