Flag v SMB

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

In drift diving the operator I go with gives each group a flag-float and a 1/4" polypro line wound on a modified coat hanger type reel. One of the group is to take the line and tow the flag-float. It is a real pain for a couple of reasons like tugging the thing along, having it tug back in seas, having to pay out/reel in as depth changes, having one hand occupied at all times, etc. So, the question is could I get an SMB and shoot it before we leave the safety stop in lieu of using their system? I don't see much of an issue about having a boat pass overhead when we are at 40+ few. Am I missing something? I am not interested in cutting a safety corner for a little ease but I don't see the advantage of the float over a good SMB properly deployed.

PICT0052.jpg

I keep this rolled up in a pocket with a small reel. If I need to surface I deploy it, do a SS and surface under it. I had a cobbler sew the flag on to the SMB.
 
I have used the Riffe and also the Omersub torpedo floats, and they both have a very streamlined frontal section....the point being, what design do we really want on the front of the torpedo float? With the riffe or omer, you can toss one off the back of a charter boat going 20 mph, and the pull on the line is minimal....try this with a flag float, and some divers could get pulled in to the water behind the boat, so great is the drag....the flag floats are the opposite of aero...

So this blunt nose torpedo....how does it do on the toss of the boat test, or, actual towing by a diver compared to the hard shell, or the Riffes?


Thanks for asking Dan. This float will to behind the boat as long as you keep the nose up. We have had good feedback from scuba divers on these new HP floats, but they are still relatively new.

If you want a low pressure float and ones where you can making a towing harness...Very good quality and at a factory direct price..

MPIF3-2.jpg



Professional Inflatable Spearfishing Float | MAKO Spearguns

inflatable-spearfishing-float-ballast.jpg
 
Thanks for asking Dan. This float will to behind the boat as long as you keep the nose up. We have had good feedback from scuba divers on these new HP floats, but they are still relatively new.

If you want a low pressure float and ones where you can making a towing harness...Very good quality and at a factory direct price..

MPIF3-2.jpg



Professional Inflatable Spearfishing Float | MAKO Spearguns

inflatable-spearfishing-float-ballast.jpg

This type is the best kind of inflatable torpedo float that I have tried....The catch I found with some brands, is the need to create something of a towing harness, so a diver towing it from 100 or 200 feet deep, will have the force pulling on the torpedo, being directed about 1/3 of the way back from the front.....this keeps the torpedo running fast and flat, and prevents it from "Nose Diving", which is exactly what happens if you try to tie the line on to the loop at the front of the torpedo..... Now with a fish, that is diving, the front tow loop is great, because it causes the torpedo to nose dive, and the fish gets tired out faster.... As a diver towing one, you have a very different need than the spear fisherman using the torpedo to "tire out" a fish..

This would be a great place for Mako to make the "Scuba diver towing harness" for the torpedo, so that unsuspecting scuba divers don't end up working their newly bought torpedo float like they were a speared fish :)
Few divers even know that they need to rig something for optimal towing....Can you address this? :)

---------- Post added April 10th, 2015 at 12:59 PM ----------

George Irvine, Bill Mee and I began using this type of torpedo float back in the late nineties, for drift dives at 280 feet, using scooters, where we were exploring reefs for many miles amidst 3 to 4 mph currents. With all the current force between surface current speed, bottom water speed, traditional ball floats were almost impossible to drag, even with big Gavin scooters, and flag floats would instantly be pulled underwater for the duration of the dive....We needed a way for the dive boat to follow us for many miles....the ONLY solution was the torpedo float, and with cave line towing them, they were so slick in the water that they created very little extra work for the Gavin scooters in our multi mile explorations. Even in this deep scenario, these were towable by a diver even without a scooter, without much effort....but at this depth, with a distance mission, scooters were the only way to go :)


*** Another thought on these....and while I do NOT believe in diving with tanks too heavy to swim up without an inflated BC/wing....For the crowd that DOES dive so negative they need an emergency redundant buoyant float/smb in case of a wing failure...this torpedo with a polypro line could almost be used by a hard hat diver to haul themselves up..... [ Akimbo, I am kidding here :) ]
But flotation is close to 100 pounds of lift, so a scuba diver towing one of these, could hand over hand themselves , up to the surface, pretty much no matter how foolishly overweighted they had been able to get themselves!!! :)
No need to worry about the wing failure, and then the emergency float getting away leaving the heavy diver standing on the bottom !
 
View attachment 206239

I keep this rolled up in a pocket with a small reel. If I need to surface I deploy it, do a SS and surface under it. I had a cobbler sew the flag on to the SMB.

My question here, because thie is such a an outstanding idea, at least for those who not need to always have the dive flag deployed during the dive, is why my own SMB is not already so equipped?

ScubaBoard, where smart ideas are always on tap.

Thanks very much for this great idea, and expecially for taking the time to take and post a picture of it.

(My like button is broken, so a thousand thanks!)
 
My question here, because thie is such a an outstanding idea, at least for those who not need to always have the dive flag deployed during the dive, is why my own SMB is not already so equipped?

ScubaBoard, where smart ideas are always on tap.

Thanks very much for this great idea, and expecially for taking the time to take and post a picture of it.

(My like button is broken, so a thousand thanks!)

I'm glad you like the idea. How come it isn't already DIR I wonder? Would you be allowed to use it being that it is not DIR? You might be on thin ice here with the team! :wink: Just tugging your chain at little. Find a clobber or somebody with a big ass sewing machine and make one.
 
My question here, because thie is such a an outstanding idea, at least for those who not need to always have the dive flag deployed during the dive, is why my own SMB is not already so equipped?

ScubaBoard, where smart ideas are always on tap.

Thanks very much for this great idea, and expecially for taking the time to take and post a picture of it.

(My like button is broken, so a thousand thanks!)

The Wet Pleasures Dive shop in Lantana ( South of West Palm Beach, Fl) has been selling 8 foot long tubes like this with flag attached, for years.
Not so many divers care for these flag/smb's though...they fail at the most basic need---
  1. Biggest need is for the boat to be able to follow the divers throughout the dive--this requires a towed float and flag.....the tubes are terrible for towing effectively. You really don't want the boat to NOT see you or track you underwater, to the point of you getting 2 miles or further from the boat--so far that you need a 8 or 9 foot long tube float with flag for the boat to see it over the waves.
  2. A flag DOES NOT protect a diver or group from ignorant boaters blasting along the reef line. Boats running at 25 mph or faster, don't even see the flag until it is practically under the boat, and typically too late....and many do not care about dive flags, they do not look for them, and are oblivious. When a diver thinks that a dive flag is some form of protection from boaters, this massively endangers them from the real threat of being run over.
  3. Dive boats patrolling the area that their divers are in, designated by the dive flags they are following, constantly scan the horizon for ignorant boaters, and head toward any oncoming vessels, or raise them on radio, and they will position themselves between ignorant boater and the dive flags....this is the REAL protection divers get...the flag just helps the dive boat to know the area that needs protection....and where to be to pick up the divers.
  4. Towing a torpedo float from 60 to 140 feet, offers practically no drag, it ensures pick up from boat, protection from ignorant boaters, offers redundant flotation for scuba divers.
  5. If you want to be safe without a dive boat patrolling, a flag on a high pole, on a 12 to 20 foot brightly colored kayak will work--only because boaters are afraid to ruin their props if they run over the kayak.
 
Also Florida law (others probably follow suit) requires that the flag be held out by a wire and the one in the picture does not. The wire would also defeat the ability to roll the sausage into the neat bundle that stows easily.
 
Thanks for the tip. If they are using a premade one, and you can find the brand, I would love to know about it. I could use a bunch of them.

Yeah, to be honest, you Florida folks have it tough, having to drag a flag throughout a dive. I would hate having to do that. I would probably just quit diving, to be honest. Or at least ignore the law until I had to quit diving.

Or more probably pay you money to help you work out a system that felt safe and effective. I am reading your posts in this thread with interest and frankly, admiration. I cannot imagine pulling anything at the surface at more than 200 feet.

[off topic to the OP, but...

I am lucky to have lived and worked only in places that state the law differently, in that surfacing intentionally at a distance from the flag is the only issue. There is no need under these laws. (and as discussions about the flag laws here have come about, a disincentive) to attach it to a moving diver. It marks the area where a diver will surface, not where they are diving.

Here's a real and common thing that happens at popular dive sites. Two or three of four dive boats will, with dive flags deployed, reposition their order on the buoys. The last thing we would want is for people to be dragging their own flags around in the way of the boats, or worse, a different dive team from a different boat where the leads entangling would cause more hazards than they might prevent. I know that most divers would in those cricumstance be using the Dive Boats flags, but then for me, we are back to the idea that a surfacing area marker makes more sense.

Dealing with dangling lines in general is just a hazard to the way of thinking here, and I am glad I don't have to carry a flag. Actually, I am not particularly in favor of having to display one anyway, since they tend to only work to inform other divers.

Boaters, and even enforcement officials are not kept away from flags, IME. Magic Island Dive Flags tended to become slalom courses for Jetskis if more than one person puts out a flag. Consistently enough that I don't want to use it anymore.

(Of course free diving and spearfishing have different issues about lines than scuba, but then again those divers are at the surface often.)
 
Notwithstanding the fact that it is the law, there are two compelling reasons I have learned for having a dive flag displayed. First, it provides a clear zone in which to surface. Yeah, there a yahoos who will encroach on it but not all boaters (separate opinion on jet skis) are yahoos and it ups your odds. Again an SMB does that BUT if you have to make an emergency ascent you are already on the wrong side of the odds and no flag and no time to shoot an SMB just adds another element against you. I like the odds in my favor to the extent I can tip things that way.

Second, if you are drift diving from a boat and have traveled some distance from the entry point they may not be looking for you where you are or you may be so far that it is hard to spot you in the seas. No big deal UNLESS you have a distressed diver who needs to get on the boat RIGHT NOW! Then seconds can count.

So, yeah, you could dive an entire career without a flag and never have an safety or legal issue. You can also dive an entire career and never have anyone need your octo. I still carry an octo. So like Clint asked "How luck to you feel?" Me, I'd put my hands up and continue to pull the flag.
 
Notwithstanding the fact that it is the law, there are two compelling reasons I have learned for having a dive flag displayed. First, it provides a clear zone in which to surface. Yeah, there a yahoos who will encroach on it but not all boaters (separate opinion on jet skis) are yahoos and it ups your odds. Again an SMB does that BUT if you have to make an emergency ascent you are already on the wrong side of the odds and no flag and no time to shoot an SMB just adds another element against you. I like the odds in my favor to the extent I can tip things that way.

Second, if you are drift diving from a boat and have traveled some distance from the entry point they may not be looking for you where you are or you may be so far that it is hard to spot you in the seas. No big deal UNLESS you have a distressed diver who needs to get on the boat RIGHT NOW! Then seconds can count.

So, yeah, you could dive an entire career without a flag and never have an safety or legal issue. You can also dive an entire career and never have anyone need your octo. I still carry an octo. So like Clint asked "How luck to you feel?" Me, I'd put my hands up and continue to pull the flag.

That just may be the case with me on both counts. The 1st 20+ years of my diving "career" I didn't even have an octo. I've never had to use one either, yet. Never had to make an emergency ascent around boat traffic either, yet. This year beings year 45 of my "career" so I just may make, if I don't get killed :wink:

I'm a charter member of the FTFF and avoid towing a flag when ever possible but the law requires I display one. Some places I dive have so much boat traffic I treat it as a hard overhead and take care of problems without surfacing. However the law does check from time to time at certain popular dive sites; at those sites although I may enter the water without a flag if enforcement is absent, I always exit with my smb/flag comb in case they showed up during my dive. Luck? Ya make your own luck son.

It's a shame that each of us can't dive the way we wish without interference from unelected faceless bureaucrats but as most Americans do we find ways around their interference.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom