Fishsuit and Fogless Mask: Improving the State of the Art

[JohnSmart]

Hi Scuba Pros,

Thanks greatly for your advice, and sorry for the length of this post.

I'm an ocean swimmer and surface snorkeler in Los Angeles. The ocean gets down to 50 degrees in winter, which keeps most people out even when they live on the coast as I do. I've recently decided to start swimming with a unipiece drysuit designed to cover every part of my body (head, face, feet, and hands as well as body). I'm calling this a Fishsuit, as it should make it as easy for me to go for a swim as my finned friends.

I've located an affordable well-regarded drysuit, the Palm Classic ($389)
http://www.kayakproshop.com/Palm.html
This is made for kayakers but it should work for ocean swimming as well (I'm not sure about diving/compression with this suit however. I've inquired of the manufacturers).

My plan is to have neoprene webbed swimming gloves, booties, zip fins, and hood permanently stitch glued to the drysuit. As the flanges no longer need to be waterproof against the body I can let them out a bit, which should eliminate the hurting around the neck and wrists that drysuit wearers get from their flanges. I'd rather have an affordable drysuit with neoprene rather than latex flanges, as they are more comfortable, last longer, and easier to glue to, but I can make the latex do if I can't find a reasonably priced suit like the Palm with neoprene flanges.

I've ordered a clear silicone Mantis Full-Face Mask ($199, Ocean Technology Systems, http://www.oceantechnologysystems.com/jpn_bud.shtml
(see the picture near the bottom, it comes without the regulator). I'm told my snorkel will make a watertight seal in the mouth hole and be easily removable.

I'm planning to have the mask stitch glued to the face opening in my hood, so I can just pull the mask and hood onto my head in one quick motion when I'm getting in the suit. No more mask straps! The luxury of a loose-fitting mask! No more racoon face! I'll install a waterproof zipper on the hood above and to the sides of the mask so I can peel it away from my face in an emergency (waterproof zipper technology is now very good). This approach also solves another problem for ocean swimmers: water in the ears and ear infection. No more silicon ear putty, plugs, etc.

Now here's the tough part:

How to I get my mask to stay fog free, even after an hour of exothermic swimming?

I'll use antifog preparations if necessary, but this being 2006 there should be better solutions available by now. Here are my top three in order of preference:

1. Electrically Heated Fog-Free Diving Mask. Back in the 1980s I read about some ski goggles (anyone remember the manufacturer?) that had heater elements in the lens, powered by a 9V battery. That always seemed like the most logical idea to me, just like the heated mirrors we see in bathroooms and showers. I'm imagining a dual lens system with an insulating air gap (like modern home windows), so that the inside lens could be kept significantly hotter than both the inside mask air and the outside lens facing the ocean water. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any company that has this technology (apparently NASA was the first to use it with astronaut suits). Still it should be pretty easy to make a prototype if anyone can help me track down the ski goggle company or steer me to some prototypers willing to make lenses with heater elements in them for me. It's time we had one of these on the market. Any mask makers willing to take the challenge?

2. Anti-Fog Inserts. This is lower tech, but an editor at Diver Mag in the UK steered me to a company called Miller Masks of Ogden UT. They created what they called Advexx™ Inserts to be applied to the lens with a (slimy?) surface that was apparently a good fog fighter. I'd imagine they would work for a good while at least. Unfortunately the company's number and website (fogless.com) are now disconnected. Does anyone know Mr./Ms. Miller's full name? If I had that I could probably locate him/her and have a good chat.

3. Anti-Fog Wax. I've also heard of a wax you can put on your mask and polish up after it dries. This sounds a bit dicey, but I'd be willing to try it if I can't find any Advexx inserts, as it still sounds improved over a solution you have to put on every time you swim, and which doesn't work some days for unknown reasons, which is my current situation. I'd appreciate knowing where to get that if anyone has a link. I'm not interested in solutions I have to put on every time I swim/dive. I've got plenty of those and am ready to try for something better.

I'm also wondering if this mask fogging problem is the reason why I've never seen any waterproof hood plus full-face mask combos to attach to drysuits. Does anyone know why no one sells something like this for cold water swimmers, snorkelers, and divers?

I'm thinking we might even be able to use this kind of no-fuss setup for diving if some kind of ear equalization technology were added to the hood. If anyone has ideas on that I'd appreciate them, however my main goal at present is creating a suit that I won't be submerging more than a few feet with.

Thanks for any feedback!

 

[MSilvia]

I've found that spit works really well as an anti-fog, so long as you've removed the coating that usually comes on new masks. Toothpaste and a soft brush is often enough to remove it.

I can't see much need for the fish suit idea though, at least not for divers. I'd want something more substantial than a kayaker suit, and I like being able to remove my mask. I think being able to remove my gloves is almost a necessity, as getting out of the suit would be quite challenging with them on. For surface swimming, I don't know.

 

[H2Andy]

Toothpaste and a soft brush is often enough to remove it.

i use non-abrasive toothpaste and my fingers... works very well. this is to
remove the initial coating. probably once is enough, but i do it three or four
times to be sure.

after that, i just spit on the mask and rinse it (once) right before wearing.
don't rinse it and keep it off, as this will tend to completely wash the spit
off, and you odn't want that.

 

[RonFrank]

Divers that dive in Antartica don't go to the lengths you are going to achieve warmth in waters that are 30F.

Divers do your coast daily, and just use drysuits, and standard dry hoods with a mask.

I'd suggest that gluing stuff onto the suit is going to be problematic. Good luck getting into, and out of Neoprene gloves that are permenantly attached to the arms.. the same goes for the mask, and hood.

You can purchase a drysuit, drygloves, and dryhood, and now you just have the face opening. If your mask seals well, and stays fog free all you have is your lips left, and they go numb in very cold water without harm, however you are not diving in that cold of water.

I'm not sure the way you are planning on all this is going to work very well....

To answer you question... there is NOTHING that is going to be 100% effective at preventing fog... If there was EVERYONE would be using it. There is a new lens design that is suppose to be fog free, but right now it's getting developed/tested at someplalce like MIT, so not on the market likely for a while.

I use SeaGold, PSI 5000 or something like that, and spit. The first two work better than the third, and none of them works all the time.

 

[kidspot]

Interesting idea, my concern would be overheating in the suit - I have never dove in water below 55*, but with Scuba you are not moving or generating much heat from muscle movement. Still I was quite warm in my suit. Swimming I'd be concerned about over heating and the amount of sweat generated which might negate the point of having a drysuit - I'm not saying it won't work, just some questions I would want answered first...

I think the new anti-fog stuff is being used on the Hydro-optix mask http://www.hydrooptix.com - you might find some more info there on it.

Let us know how it works out for you - somebody's gotta be the first to try it... maybe that'll be you

Aloha, Tim

 

[Mo2vation]

There is no improving the state of the art for things like masks. Its a rubber skirt with glass and a strap. It begins and ends there. Don't hold your breath waiting for any order-of-magnitude change on your lifetime or mine. We've reached the apex of maskdom (unless you consider a leaky purge valve one giant leap for mankind...) Get one that fits, take care of it and it will give you fog-free performance for years.

If your mask keeps on fogging, even after repeated toothpaste baths, chuck it. I mean, its a mask... its like $30 or $40. One $6 bottle of 500PSI goop lasts me over 200 dives in SoCal. I won't tolerate a fogged mask - throws a funk over my whole dive. But at the same time, its just a mask... a $200 mask does the same thing as a $30 mask. Get one that fits, take care of it, save your cash and concentrate on your trim and kicks.

Tech is not your answer to mask fogging. A clean pane of glass is. If your mask can't hang, kick it to the curb and get another one.

Only Skiiers are gullible enough to pay for battery powered heaters or little tiny fans in their goggles.

---
Ken

 

[JohnSmart]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Kidspot, I think you're right that overheating is the central issue here. Donning a warm hood + full-face mask watertight unipiece seems quite intriguing and a long overdue innovation, as I think having to fiddle with mask straps, ear putty, racoon face and an aching jaw and lips should be an option rather than a necessity in the twenty first century, but I bet it will be a lot hotter than a traditional setup, not just for divers but particularly for a surface swimmer/snorkeler. My worst fogging has always occurred when my body is sweating a lot, something that most divers may not do much, which might make this problem minor in the diving world.

I don't think traditional anti-fog techniques are going to cut it, but it occurs to me, reading these posts, that I can answer this question by putting 500PSI anti-fog on a mirror and holding it up in my hot shower tomorrow morning (technically, I should do this for an hour, as I will swim for up to twice that time if I'm warm). If the mirror remains clear I'll be fine, but if it doesn't then I'm going to need some better tech. It also occurs to me that if my mirror does fog up, the engineers at one of the heated mirror companies might be good people to turn to for prototyping an electrically heated mask lens.

RonFrank, thanks for the tip about attaching the gloves. I think you are right, it will be easier just to keep them separate for starters at least. If I do attach them later I should have a waterproof zipper along the forearms for easy access in an emergency. Plus, I understand latex seals on the wrists don't hurt as much as the one around the neck, which is the one I'm most interested in eliminating.

Cheers,
John Smart

 

[RonFrank]

Only Skiiers are gullible enough to pay for battery powered heaters or little tiny fans in their goggles.

---
Ken

Me thinks not!! I'm one of those skiers that has NEVER paid for some fancy no fog solution.. however if you think scuba Divers are less gullible than skiers... me thinks they are made from the same mold....

 

[Mandy3206]

I think it would be a very expensive experiment.

What if it doesn't work as expected?
You would end up with a ruined Drysuit, mask, gloves, booties, ect.

Wish you luck and let us know how it worked out.

 

[JohnSmart]

Hi Guys,

Here's an update FYI. For the suit I went for:

O'Neill Psycho II, a surfer's semi-dry 6mm/4mm fullsuit with integrated hood, $280 (On sale at http://www.xstreamline.com/)
Suit is neoprene and spandex, has incredible range of motion in the arms (which I need for swimming) and if I sweat it apparently wicks out through drain holes. 6mm body and 4mm legs and arms should keep me warm even at 49 degrees.
http://www.boardtactics.com/prod/ONeill/Psycho+II+6+4+w+Hood+FSW+Wetsuit/

For the anti-fog I found:

Zooke ("Zoo-key") Anti-Fog Z-Wax, $6
http://www.usfreeads.com/350659-cls.html
Z-wax apparently works great for visors, goggles, glasses, skiing, scuba, biking, etc. Apparently even works on shaving mirrors in the shower and keeps them fog free for weeks.

This is a small Utah company started by a group of outdoor enthusiasts who wanted fog free goggles, visors, dive masks, etc. http://www.zooke.com/about.php

Motorcyclists also get fog on their visors and since it is particularly dangerous for them, they've come up with all kinds of anti fog solutions.
Here's a "boiling kettle" test they did with one of the anti-fog waxes:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motorcycle-helmet-visor-anti-fog/

Here's one of their most recommended antifog liquids, FogTech
http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/fogtech/

They've also got anti-fog inserts (Fog Shield, $20), double visor solutions (Pinlock system), and even an electrically heated visor (option on the Zeus 508).

Pinlock (http://www.pinlock.com/) has visor inserts for motorcycle goggles which eliminate fogging and don't have to be touched once they are installed, but none for dive masks yet. Would be nice to see someone make a double pane mask like this for swimmers/divers, but won't hold my breath.

The anti-fog wax looks like the best choice for now. Cheap and you don't have to put it on every time you swim. Hope we see the wax in more dive shops, would be a small move in the right direction at least.

Cheers,
John