First Stage Swivel

[tdallen]

I've experienced, in my limited rec diving, where I get a pulling down and to the right on a rental regulator that makes things uncomfortable. Therefore some kind of swivel in the second stage hose makes sense to me and I'll be looking for that when I get a regulator this year (either an Atomic hose or an add-on swivel). I've seen that some turret style first stages also come with a swivel, though. From reading the forums, opinions seem mixed:

• They're awesome.
• They're terrible because they are an additional failure point.
• They aren't actually all that useful in single tank rec diving.
• They do have limited use on stage bottles in tech diving.

Most of my diving will be single tank warm water rec diving, with a limited possibility that I'll get into dry suit diving here in New England. So, does a first stage swivel help enough with hose positioning to worth looking for?

Thanks.

 

[tbone1004]

if there is a possibility of diving locally in Boston, I personally wouldn't go with Atomic. They are beautiful regulators, but sealing a chamber in an Atomic, while effective, isn't cost effective, or the best way to go. The Atomic hose is also not where I would personally go if I wanted a ball swivel, but to each his own. At $110, they really aren't worth it. I can get a standard hose for $20 and if you want the real mac-daddy of swivels, the Omni is $82. Spend the same amount of money, but when the hose breaks, you only have to replace the $25 hose, not the $80 swivel. Same if you decide you want to change hose lengths for some reason.

Regarding your points
1. yes they are
2. it's one o-ring, and with proper maintenance, it should literally never be an issue
3. That is true with "traditional" hose routing, however there are many scenarios where they provide tremendous flexibility to your hose routing in single tank use
4. they are anything but "limited use" in tech diving. Doubles hose routing is the best with a swivel turret and fifth port, sidemount diving is best done with a swivel turret, stage bottles all benefit from it. The fifth port is really only necessary for me in doubles, but the turret is infinitely useful.

 

[DON-PNW]

I had the same issue a few years ago. I was able to get my reg setup comfortable by going with a Miflex hose with no swivel. The key was for me was the right length hose (I tried several different lengths before buying one at my local dive shop). A few months ago I bought a new complete regulator setup and I opted to go with the dual Miflex Swivel hose and been happy with this as well.

 

[BoltSnap]

if there is a possibility of diving locally in Boston, I personally wouldn't go with Atomic. They are beautiful regulators, but sealing a chamber in an Atomic, while effective, isn't cost effective, or the best way to go.

Why aren't Atomic regulators not recommended by you for diving in Boston??? I don't understand what you said.

 

[tbone1004]

Why aren't Atomic regulators not recommended by you for diving in Boston??? I don't understand what you said.

we've been over this. despite knowing myself many divers that use pistons in the cold salty stuff, I don't think injecting the ambient chamber with grease is the best way to seal a regulator and that diaphragms really do have their purpose for that kind of diving. I like minimal maintenance, and I like cheap service. Sealing pistons fulfill neither of those, especially if said sealed regulators are out baking in the sun and start oozing which I have seen before. The cost of sealing them is pretty big at every service, especially compared to $0 on a diaphragm, and the extra effort it takes to make sure that chamber is properly rinsed is a whole lot more than basically 0 effort required with a sealed diaphragm.

Call me cheap, call me lazy, whatever, but there is no discernible performance difference to the user in the first stage for me to warrant that extra effort. The build quality is brilliant, and the regs breathe wonderfully, but the extra maintenance just isn't worth it.

Looking back he was just talking about the hose I think, and that hose is probably the biggest rip-off I've seen in regulators in a long time...

 

[tdallen]

I haven't really seen any sealed diaphram's with a swivel turret, though - do you know of any? Or is it an either/or choice?

 

[guruboy]

Hog D1 and D3.
Deep6.
Apeks DST.
I'm sure dive rite has one too. XT2?
Probably Hollis as well. DCX?

 

[tbone1004]

I haven't really seen any sealed diaphram's with a swivel turret, though - do you know of any? Or is it an either/or choice?

Apeks DST
Apeks MTX-R
Dive Rite XT
Hog D1
Hog D3
Deep 6
Hollis DC1 and DCX

there's others, but the list isn't short

 

[tdallen]

Thanks

 

[BoltSnap]

we've been over this. despite knowing myself many divers that use pistons in the cold salty stuff, I don't think injecting the ambient chamber with grease is the best way to seal a regulator and that diaphragms really do have their purpose for that kind of diving. I like minimal maintenance, and I like cheap service. Sealing pistons fulfill neither of those, especially if said sealed regulators are out baking in the sun and start oozing which I have seen before. The cost of sealing them is pretty big at every service, especially compared to $0 on a diaphragm, and the extra effort it takes to make sure that chamber is properly rinsed is a whole lot more than basically 0 effort required with a sealed diaphragm.

Call me cheap, call me lazy, whatever, but there is no discernible performance difference to the user in the first stage for me to warrant that extra effort. The build quality is brilliant, and the regs breathe wonderfully, but the extra maintenance just isn't worth it.

Looking back he was just talking about the hose I think, and that hose is probably the biggest rip-off I've seen in regulators in a long time...

What you said is VERY inaccurate and misleading:

1. You don't need a sealed regulator to dive in New England, unless if you are diving under the ice. I dove in New England for 25 years or more all year long and used unsealed regulators most of the time with no issues at all. Most divers I know in New England, especially MA, use unsealed regulators and all is OK with them. Scubapro's piston regulators aren't sealed and they are the top choice for many technical divers in New England.

2. Atomic regulators require much less service than any other regulator I know. Their sealed first stage regulators require even less service. The ToC (Total Cost of Ownership) of the Atomic regulators is the lowest ToC of all other high end regulators. Their reliability is unmatched by any other mfg. out there.

3. I won't call you the things you call yourself but you are just plain wrong about Atomic regulators reliability and performance.

4. In regards to Atomic's second stage hoses with swivel, they expensive but that isn't the issue here since buying a regulator hose and the Omniswivel will cost about the same. The big issue with the Atomic ss hoses with swivel is the fact that the swivel is permanently attached to the hose necessitating the replacement of the swivel when replacing the hose which makes it a very expensive proposition. If they detach the swivel from the hose, it will be a fantastic setup.