First BP/W looking for advice on setups!

[gcarter]

Again, if Hog is making a wing in the US and offering a 10 year warranty on the inner bladder, then you're in good shape. I wouldn't warranty the older Hog wing that I saw. The issue is, beyond workmanship, quality of materials. Halcyon and OMS, for example, use top quality dernier; moreover, they heavily polyurethane undercoat both their outer and inner bladders. And you can feel it when you grab the material. This is not to say that other wings, which use a 1680 dernier (typical stuff), won't hold up just fine. If you ask "which wing," however, I do consider these issues in offering a response. What else is there? It's only a wing. Well, there's the warranty. If you've got a 10 year warranty, then dive the wing and be happy!

Anecdotally: I use a Dive Rite Travel EXP for tropical excursions (long story, in short it's center-panelless and so fits between a Scubapro backpack and mounting plate). DR wings use the most basic, "typical" materials, but are pretty nicely put together. I'm just back from Belize. The DO I went with will take care of your gear for you entire stay--storing it, setting it up before dives, and rinsing it afterward. I let them have their way with my Backpack/wing (plus wetsuit and fins--I keep my regs and computer and mask). Man they really put my wing to the stress test, or, rather, they really beat up on my wing and stressed me out (a little; hard to get too stressed about anything on Ambergris). I would show up in the morning and my rig would be tank affixed and stuffed into a tank mount that was a wooden box with holes cut out. Well, the bottom of my wing would be half squeezed inside the hole with the tank and half outside, and entirely crumpled. I'd race over and reinstall it on the conventional tank mounts that were on the side of the boat. Yanking my rig onto the boat from the water, they would allow the inflated wing to bang or drag against the boat. After diving, they'd literally toss the BC's into a pile, with trim weights still affixed (easier to keep track of weights that way). My wing was once at the very bottom of the pile, with other weighted down BC's on top of it. To drain water from the BC, they would squeeze it like a sponge around the exhaust valve (as if my wing were voodoo doll of me, tears would drain from eyes).

My enitirely ordinary, unexceptional DR wing is still holding air, or at least I think it is.

All I can say is - ouch.

 

[BVickery]

All I can say is - ouch.

Not really. The early HOG's had some issues (actually had a recall if I remember right). But, from talking with a lot of people who own the newer wings by Hog, they seem VERY well made and a lot of positive reviews for them.

It also bodes well for HOG in that they noticed the gear was faulty and decided to fix/improve on it instead of just keeping the things the way they are.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The only problem I ever heard of was the springs that more than a few mfg's got stuck with and I had one person call me about a wing fraying near the zipper. One call to Chris and a new wing was boxed and sent while I was on the phone. I have an original 32lb wing and dives under the ice, a traverse in an old limestone mine, and a bunch of other dives has had zero effect on it. Functionally or cosmetically. I also have the new 23lb and 32lb wings. I would dive any of them anywhere.

 

[rongoodman]

The computer however I was looking into the Uwatec console only because I was told that it's a decent beginner computer but I was planning on removing it from the console and wrist mounting it anyways and just using the rest of the console as an SPG.

Nothing wrong with the computer, although the newer OLED displays are really nice. If you're only going to have an SPG in the console, though, why not just hang a bare SPG on a 24" hose and eliminate the bulk?

 

[gcarter]

Not really. The early HOG's had some issues (actually had a recall if I remember right). But, from talking with a lot of people who own the newer wings by Hog, they seem VERY well made and a lot of positive reviews for them.

It also bodes well for HOG in that they noticed the gear was faulty and decided to fix/improve on it instead of just keeping the things the way they are.

Sorry, I should have trimmed what I quoted.

The "ouch" was for the treatment of his gear by the dive op - noithing to do with the brands under discussion at all.

I was well satisfied with the HOG reputation before purchasing anything for my son - it's not just money, it is my son. My curiosity was as to the reasons for the previous comments, and not really looking for reassurance on the purchase just completed. As I said, it certainly looks like 1st rate kit to me.

 

[770link770]

Nothing wrong with the computer, although the newer OLED displays are really nice. If you're only going to have an SPG in the console, though, why not just hang a bare SPG on a 24" hose and eliminate the bulk?

The console would still have the SPG and a compass, however I'm not opposed to other ideas. Any recommendations on a computer and plain SPG?

As for the BP/W. I contacted Mike with DRIS and we worked out a deal. Definitely can't wait for it to arrive in the mail now!

 

[mahjong]

You run up against all sorts of loyalties that get in the way of product evaluations. I too have this tendency; however, as for wings, I currently have--and the "have had" gets crazier--so many that any loyalties are more or less dissolved. For example, for singles, I currently use as my go to wing a 40# Oxy Mach V. But I dove a 40# Halcyon Eclipse for about four years. So I am not really loyal to one at the expense of the other. And I am not in business, selling scuba gear (offering the full line of this company or that), so I have no interest in promoting everything to everyone, telling people I'd dive this or that wing anywhere and under any conditions.

I was trying to state that the HOG 32# wing (at least the old one, which I carefully examined) is made using basic materials for wings. It is not made with materials with the robustness of, for example, Halcyon or OMS wings (among some others as well). I tried to state this fact while also making the point that these basic materials can produce a wing that's plenty durable enough to stand up to the beating that I described was taken by my Dive Rite Travel EXP recently in Belize--the DR Travel EXP being a typical recreational wing made with very basic materials (the shell is made of 1680 dernier, same as the HOG).

But anyone who doubts that there are differences in materials, differences that might make a difference, might just want to take a look at Dive Rite. They just came out with an XT series of wings that uses 1000 dernier (itself superior to the 1680, which is on their EXP recreational line of wings) that also has some sort of "armoured" laminated overlays that bring their XT line of wings to the highest level of robustness. They tell you that their XT line is more robust than their EXP line. The HOG 32# wing uses 1680 dernier, just like Dive Rite's EXP recreational line. The HOG website neglects to state what the inner bladder of the 32# wing is made of; however, the inner bladder of it's 23# wing is 220 dernier. Perhaps this is roughly comparable to the 15mm urethane inner bladder of the DR EXP line, with 15mm being about as thin as it gets for wing bladders (check out the thickness of the urethane inner bladders on Oxy and DSS wings). As for dernier inner bladders (like HOG's), I believe Halcyon uses 400 dernier, again with urethane undercoating.

Sorry, I should have trimmed what I quoted.

The "ouch" was for the treatment of his gear by the dive op - noithing to do with the brands under discussion at all.

I was well satisfied with the HOG reputation before purchasing anything for my son - it's not just money, it is my son. My curiosity was as to the reasons for the previous comments, and not really looking for reassurance on the purchase just completed. As I said, it certainly looks like 1st rate kit to me.

 

[gcarter]

You run up against all sorts of loyalties that get in the way of product evaluations. I too have this tendency; however, as for wings, I currently have--and the "have had" gets crazier--so many that any loyalties are more or less dissolved. For example, for singles, I currently use as my go to wing a 40# Oxy Mach V. But I dove a 40# Halcyon Eclipse for about four years. So I am not really loyal to one at the expense of the other. And I am not in business, selling scuba gear (offering the full line of this company or that), so I have no interest in promoting everything to everyone, telling people I'd dive this or that wing anywhere and under any conditions.

I was trying to state that the HOG 32# wing (at least the old one, which I carefully examined) is made using basic materials for wings. It is not made with materials with the robustness of, for example, Halcyon or OMS wings (among some others as well). I tried to state this fact while also making the point that these basic materials can produce a wing that's plenty durable enough to stand up to the beating that I described was taken by my Dive Rite Travel EXP recently in Belize--the DR Travel EXP being a typical recreational wing made with very basic materials (the shell is made of 1680 dernier, same as the HOG).

But anyone who doubts that there are differences in materials, differences that might make a difference, might just want to take a look at Dive Rite. They just came out with an XT series of wings that uses 1000 dernier (itself superior to the 1680, which is on their EXP recreational line of wings) that also has some sort of "armoured" laminated overlays that bring their XT line of wings to the highest level of robustness. They tell you that their XT line is more robust than their EXP line. The HOG 32# wing uses 1680 dernier, just like Dive Rite's EXP recreational line. The HOG website neglects to state what the inner bladder of the 32# wing is made of; however, the inner bladder of it's 23# wing is 220 dernier. Perhaps this is roughly comparable to the 15mm urethane inner bladder of the DR EXP line, with 15mm being about as thin as it gets for wing bladders (check out the thickness of the urethane inner bladders on Oxy and DSS wings). As for dernier inner bladders (like HOG's), I believe Halcyon uses 400 dernier, again with urethane undercoating.

It seems to me that you and I are pretty much on the same page on this stuff - I am not at all blindly brand loyal. Give me a good product at a good price, that's all. But I can be - and usually am - service loyal. Give me good service at a good price, resolve problems fairly (no I am not a diva, so I really do mean fairly) and I will be loyal. Sometimes this will equate to an equipment brand, sometimes it will equate to a business. But loyalty is earned, continuously, and is not blind.

I am very happy with my Seaquest / Apeks gear. I am equally impressed with my son's HOG gear.

I think what some fail to appreciate (again for clarity, no commentary on anyone in this thread, any communications failings thus far are mine) is that even when you are happy with your gear choices, it is still ok to be critical or questioning of them. You can't have too much information. Even the best gear has its quirks; the more information you have, the better equipped you are to deal with issues.

That is the spirit in which I asked for your comparative reasoning, and I appreciate your detailed responses.

Now I put on my Finance hat. I work for a company in the defense industry (protective, no offensive products). We take seriously our role as a supplier of products upon which people depend for their lives - military, law enforcement, and first responders. I have seen graphic video evidence of our equipment saving lives. I have family members who have gone into theatre depending on our products for protection.

Yet I am constantly challenging our engineers whether they are engineering their products at the right level (by challenging the costings, I don't pretend to know enough to challenge them on the specs). There comes a stage beyond which the product becomes over-engineered, driving up the cost for no practical benefit. It is in my nature to ask questions and challenge. At different companies, I have cost reduced products by as much as 25% simply by asking questions nobody else thought to ask,and by challenging assumptions, with no effect on performace or customer satisfaction.

At the end of the day, information is power. Understanding differences in construction, in materials used, in performance characteristics, allows you to balance them off against your own expectations, budget, and personal cost-benefit position.

---------- Post added April 6th, 2012 at 11:39 PM ----------

Option 2 in your BP/W set up is probably as good a deal as you're likely to find and the oxycheq mach V wings are very, very good. Absolutely consider a steel plate if you need the weight; for example if you're using AL80s primarily. It's worth the extra money.

Do not buy a DIN reg set unless you are primarily using DIN tanks. At this time, HOG regs come only in DIN, so look into it before buying anything. Don't rely on the DIN/yoke adapter; it moves the reg closer to your head and can be literally a pain in the neck. If you're using DIN tanks, fine, or if you wait until HOG comes out with a native yoke conversion, not an adapter, fine. They do seem to be high quality at a nice price. Otherwise look elsewhere for a reg; there are many great choices, used regs are typically an excellent deal if you have some help evaluating them, and forget about the 'free parts' crap that entices people to A) pay full retail cost for something that's widely available for far less, and B) forces the user to pay for completely unnecessary annual service. If you are diving enough to really need annual rebuilds, you're probably spending so much money that the price of rebuild kits is inconsequential.

I have Apeks yoke and my son just bought HOG DIN. All four of our tanks have convertible valves. So no big deal.

My LDS uses the Thermo convertible valves in its rental tanks. I don't know how common this is.

Might be worth checking whether convertible valves are in use where you rent - you might be able to buy regs you want instead of regs you are restricted to.

http://www.thermovalves.com/scuba.htm

 

[txaggie08]

I use a DIN reg on yoke tanks quite often, and have never experienced an issue. Certainly not one big enough to justify paying significantly more for a reg just because it's in yoke, loosing the flexibility of changing between the two to boot.

 

[ofl0926]

Another great reg that is having a promo with diverightinscuba is the Hollis 212. Check them out. I am probably going to order me a set

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