First BCD

[it_mike]

people who frequent a forum like this are either very committed to their hobby, or very gear focused, or both.

I definitely want to share my own experiences for what they are worth, and try to explain my "path" so others might benefit from the time and money I wasted on the way.

I'd have to say that these two points are probably the biggest contributors. Posters are asking for advice, most likely to garner experience from others rather than having to learn the hard (expensive) way. The 'regulars' are those who are very committed to the hobby (mental disturbance), and therefore probably spend a lot of time (money) reviewing the issues and considering alternative. Anyone who spends that much time on a subject is obviously devoted (obsessed), and may put a high value on their option.

 

[MSilvia]

The thing about the jacket advocates I've heard from is that, at least in my experience, they rarely seem to have any objective reasons for preferring them that aren't a matter of shop policy, popularity, or the like. Personal preference is fine and all, but I've yet to see a pro vs. con analysis of jacket and BP/W that was reduced to points that withstand modest scrutiny and which leaned even slightly toward jackets as benig the more advantageous system. I'm not saying you shouldn't like and use whatever appeals to you, but what you prefer doesn't mean much to me without reasons, and if you're claiming a jacket is usually a better choice for divers in general based on it's merits, it's going to be a hard sell.

 

[Stu S.]

We had a store in our town called Florida Technical Scuba. Many of you would have liked it, a lot. I had plenty of time to look over their gear while getting my tanks filled. When a new BC was needed, I checked out the plate and wing setups. All the pieces and single tank adapter added up to about $600. I like them a lot, but it was out of my price range.

Anyway, there was a Washington’s Birthday sale at another dive shop including a Sherwood Avid BC for $280. It was time to quit shopping and go diving. I’ve had that BC about 3 ½ years.

Better or worse? It doesn’t matter. $600 - $280 = the objective reason I use what I use.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The thing about the jacket advocates I've heard from is that, at least in my experience, they rarely seem to have any objective reasons for preferring them that aren't a matter of shop policy, popularity, or the like. Personal preference is fine and all, but I've yet to see a pro vs. con analysis of jacket and BP/W that was reduced to points that withstand modest scrutiny and which leaned even slightly toward jackets as benig the more advantageous system. I'm not saying you shouldn't like and use whatever appeals to you, but what you prefer doesn't mean much to me without reasons, and if you're claiming a jacket is usually a better choice for divers in general based on it's merits, it's going to be a hard sell.

Why would popularity not be one of the objective reasons? I believe it may be that many of the bp/w advocate refuse to "hear" the main objective reasons the knowledgeable jacket advocates bring up on a regular basis.

Where are most dives conducted in the world? Who are the divers conducting these dives? Where did they do their training dives and in what gear did they train?

I am of the opinion that most dives are conducted in calm warm water with good visibility and that most dives are made by vacation divers. Here in Maui County there are ~200 vacation charter seats daily, ~200 intro/resort divers daily and a bunch of non-resort shore dives (at least 600 jacket dives daily). I'd say 60 non-jacket dives daily might be a fair to generous estimate.

The vast majority of these divers were trained in calm, clear, warm water with jacket BC's. It is both safer and easier to conduct these dives with jacket BC's. The dives I have led have resulted in my belief that infrequent and/or new divers who have been sold on BI or bp/w are much more likely to have uncontrolled ascents during their vacation and for the most part these divers enjoy their diving less than most jacket divers.

Most divers are not really that comfortable in the ocean, and jacket BC's give them more comfort than non-jacket BC's. Sure, training big wave surfers/freedive spearfishers in bp/w is not much harder than training them in jacket, but the overweight out of shape woman who is near panic and exhaustion during her 200 yd swim in a 6 foot deep pool is not going to adjust quickly to the idiosyncrasies of non-jacket BC's. Which of those two students is most like the majority of students/divers worldwide?

IMHO, the SeaQuest/Aqua Lung jacket BC's that most of my employers have used for rental/training are the easiest BC's to release air from during a dive that I have had the pleasure to work with. My favorite photography BC is one of those designs. The Mares jackets at my current job seem to be easier to release air from than the non-jacket used by the occasional divers I get to lead. Also, IMHO, the majority of these divers are intimidated by the regular wind chop on the surface from our trade winds, and the jacket divers deal with that intimidation much better than the non-jacket divers. These opinions are due to the much greater percentage of non-jacket divers I see flailing near or at the surface.

Luckily, bp/w are less than 1% of the divers I have to train/lead/assist!

 

[shoturtle]

I think the BP/W works for some people and does not work for others. I tried it and still prefer the jacket and hybrid jackets better. I feel more comfortable in it, and I can get in an out of it way easier above and below water. But that is my preference. I believe that the jacket has it merits, if not, it would not out sell all other types of bcd out there combine.

And like it was stated in a prior post, there are some fanatics about the sport that post here, and at times seems obsessed with BP/W. I believe no matter how much you push on system, if you are not comfortable in it, you will never have it perform for you. Try things out, and see what you feel comfortable in it. And there in no way that one will not upgrade gear if they move up in the sport. Because you really do not know where it will take you till you get there.

 

[*dave*]

IMHO, the SeaQuest/Aqua Lung jacket BC's that most of my employers have used for rental/training are the easiest BC's to release air from during a dive that I have had the pleasure to work with.

What makes these jackets easier to dump than other brands?

 

[MSilvia]

All the pieces and single tank adapter added up to about $600. I like them a lot, but it was out of my price range.

I got my stainless steel plate, harness (with hardware), wing, and STA for under $400. My aluminium plate, harness (with hardware), and doubles wing was less than $300. YMMV.

Why would popularity not be one of the objective reasons?

It is objective, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny as a measure of quality. 8 out of 10 Americans are overweight, but it does not follow that being overweight is better because of it.

I believe it may be that many of the bp/w advocate refuse to "hear" the main objective reasons the knowledgeable jacket advocates bring up on a regular basis.

I don't think so. Most strong advocates of BP/W dove for many years in a jacket first, and are well aware of the many arguments for and against them. It usually because of those arguments that they found BP/W systems compelling.

Where are most dives conducted in the world? Who are the divers conducting these dives? Where did they do their training dives and in what gear did they train? I am of the opinion that most dives are conducted in calm warm water with good visibility and that most dives are made by vacation divers. Here in Maui County there are ~200 vacation charter seats daily, ~200 intro/resort divers daily and a bunch of non-resort shore dives (at least 600 jacket dives daily). I'd say 60 non-jacket dives daily might be a fair to generous estimate. The vast majority of these divers were trained in calm, clear, warm water with jacket BC's.

I don't have statistics handy, but I'd agree with those estimates and assumptions.

It is both safer and easier to conduct these dives with jacket BC's. The dives I have led have resulted in my belief that infrequent and/or new divers who have been sold on BI or bp/w are much more likely to have uncontrolled ascents during their vacation and for the most part these divers enjoy their diving less than most jacket divers.

Here's where we start crossing the line into the subjective. What about jacket BCs do you believe makes them safer and easier, excepting the familiarity that results from the majority of training having been conducted in them? My experience with BP/W leads me to believe exactly the opposite with regard to safety and enjoyment, but I can back that experience up with reasons tied to the physical nature of the gear. (Less clutter to complicate power inflator use, better distribution of ballast, etc.)

Most divers are not really that comfortable in the ocean, and jacket BC's give them more comfort than non-jacket BC's. Sure, training big wave surfers/freedive spearfishers in bp/w is not much harder than training them in jacket, but the overweight out of shape woman who is near panic and exhaustion during her 200 yd swim in a 6 foot deep pool is not going to adjust quickly to the idiosyncrasies of non-jacket BC's. Which of those two students is most like the majority of students/divers worldwide?

One might argue that people who aren't comfortable in the water are not yet divers, but rather aspiring divers with certification cards. My recommendations are made with the assumption that the divers I'm making recommendations to are comfortable with basic skills. If you want to pick a good buoyancy control device for someone who isn't comfortable underwater, I'd recommend a type II PFD. If your intention is to suggest that purchasing a BP/W system may not be a good choice for someone who isn't qualified to be in the ocean without close supervision, I would agree, and suggest they probably shouldn't be buying dive gear at all until they're capable of using it without putting themselves in undue danger. In any case, I don't believe that many of the people who would log on to scubaboard looking for recommendations instead of taking their LDS/instructor's advice are likely to fit the profile of a "typical" diver that you've put forth.

That aside, what specific idiosyncrasies are you referring to? I believe they are largely fictional.

IMHO, the SeaQuest/Aqua Lung jacket BC's that most of my employers have used for rental/training are the easiest BC's to release air from during a dive that I have had the pleasure to work with.

The Mares jackets at my current job seem to be easier to release air from than the non-jacket used by the occasional divers I get to lead.

Why? Do they have a different power inflator? A different corrugated hose? Some special design that allows gas to ascend better than it does from, for example, a donut-shaped wing that has the same corrugated hose located top dead center plus a pull dump?

My favorite photography BC is one of those designs.

That's great. Subjective and totally lacking in details about why you like it, but great.

Also, IMHO, the majority of these divers are intimidated by the regular wind chop on the surface from our trade winds, and the jacket divers deal with that intimidation much better than the non-jacket divers. These opinions are due to the much greater percentage of non-jacket divers I see flailing near or at the surface.

The confidence level of your divers is not a quality of the gear they use, but of the divers themselves.

Luckily, bp/w are less than 1% of the divers I have to train/lead/assist!

What conclusion am I to draw from that, other than that you don't see many of them?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

What makes these jackets easier to dump than other brands?

For starters, SeaQuest's superior designs. One of the best moves Aqua Lung ever made was buying SeaQuest.

The first superior design I will mention is not just on their jacket BC's; the in/deflator unit has simple easy to use buttons! The first shop I worked for used Oceanic jackets and I liked their in/deflate design less than SeaQuest but it was not that big an issue, until the new Oceanic wrap around inflate button circa '03-ish. That Oceanic design may be the worst ever, making it very hard to press the deflate button without also pressing the inflate button. As I see it, most big name BC manufacturers have similarly difficult deflate button ergonomics, you have to pay more attention to not inflate when you are trying to deflate than with the SeaQuest unit.

That said I'm sure there are other systems that are workable, above I was really just talking about the gear my employers have had for me to use (and many other shops/boats/resorts here).

The other superior design must be the way the in/deflate unit is positioned, as the vast majority of my divers in SeaQuest jackets have let air out easier than any other jackets I have seen infrequent/new divers in. I also dive a SeaQuest Balance (a back inflate), which has the same in/deflate piece as my jacket, but I must contort way farther up and to the right to get all the air out compared to the jacket. The kidney dump is also way more accessable on the jacket models (any brand here); the Balance wings out so I have to stretch as far back as possible to reach that dump, and I have relatively long arms!

I work in the Balance because the slate my employer requires me to use attaches more elegantly (and it was only $20 at the Lahaina Salvation Army), but it is more difficult for me to adjust my buoyancy in the Balance than in any jacket BC I have ever used. I had thousands of dives in jackets before using the back inflate so the difficulty is minimal to me, but when I see Balance divers with buoyancy issues I am not surprised!

The only divers I know with bp/w bought them for the flexibility of diving doubles or because they used to dive dry. I do know plenty of instructors who like me now use BI, but most of those would use jackets when teaching students (who would mostly be in jackets).

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

My recommendations are made with the assumption that the divers I'm making recommendations to are comfortable with basic skills. If you want to pick a good buoyancy control device for someone who isn't comfortable underwater, I'd recommend a type II PFD. If your intention is to suggest that purchasing a BP/W system may not be a good choice for someone who isn't qualified to be in the ocean without close supervision, I would agree, and suggest they probably shouldn't be buying dive gear at all until they're capable of using it without putting themselves in undue danger. In any case, I don't believe that many of the people who would log on to scubaboard looking for recommendations instead of taking their LDS/instructor's advice are likely to fit the profile of a "typical" diver that you've put forth.

This thread is concerning a non-diver buying gear to use on vacation in warm water! With only this much information to go on I will stick to my assumption that non-jacket just might not be the best recommendation.

Hello all,
My wife and I just got back from vacation were we took a resort course scuba dive. We loved it. I now want to get certified. I have been reading on SB for a while and think I want to purchase my dive gear before the class so I can learn in my own gear.

For now I just plan on diving in warm water. I may later start diving more locally in what is considered temperate water. Dry suits are not really in the future for me.

 

[*dave*]

For starters, SeaQuest's superior designs. One of the best moves Aqua Lung ever made was buying SeaQuest.

The first superior design I will mention is not just on their jacket BC's; the in/deflator unit has simple easy to use buttons! The first shop I worked for used Oceanic jackets and I liked their in/deflate design less than SeaQuest but it was not that big an issue, until the new Oceanic wrap around inflate button circa '03-ish. That Oceanic design may be the worst ever, making it very hard to press the deflate button without also pressing the inflate button. As I see it, most big name BC manufacturers have similarly difficult deflate button ergonomics, you have to pay more attention to not inflate when you are trying to deflate than with the SeaQuest unit.

Yeah, I don't know who the genius was who thought opposing inflate/deflate buttons was a good idea. In any case, it's mostly a moot point, as most rec divers are putting alternate air sources on their BCD, which replaces the stock BCD power inflator.
But really, it's a power inflator... The people screwing with the design would probably re-engineer a fork. Leave the freaking thing alone.

Most wings will have a PI similar to this:

How would you simplify it? How has anyone simplified it?

The only divers I know with bp/w bought them for the flexibility of diving doubles or because the used to dive dry. I do know plenty of instructors who like me now use BI, but most of those would use jackets when teaching students (who would mostly be in jackets).

I dived a Black Diamond for about a year and check out every piece of gear I can get my hands on, so I know about jackets.
I teach CW in a rental jacket, OW in my BP/W and all personal dives are in BP/W. I have yet to try a jacket which is comparable to the rig I dive in terms of stability, access, utility, flexibility in configuration, comfort in water or reliability.

I've never had a problem dumping in any BCD as they all work the same: make the dump the high point and dump gas. Of course, designers can even screw that up by putting velcro keepers so low it becomes difficult to extend the inflator, but this is not something I've ever seen as an issue with properly configured wings.