So, Genesis, you're opening a dive shop and charter business that'll offer everything at about half the price of the rest of the folks in Destin, right?
What's the address and when do you open?
I'll be your first customer.
Rick
Fills - time for the overpriced LDSs to expire!
- Thread starter Genesis
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What's the address and when do you open?
I'll be your first customer.
Rick
Scuba
Contributor
One thing I do know for sure is that prices vary widely in this industry, as they do to various degrees in all industries.
One shop may sell nitros fills for 4.75, the one Genesis mentioned, while another one sell it for 9.00. Same gas, similar overhead expenses. Free enterprise at work. The same can be said about scuba gear in general, wether comparing LDS to LDS or LDS to internet, or internet to internet. There will always be some difference in overhead cost from business to business. Some people are simply able to run a business more efficiently then others.
What I find peculiar to this industry is that there appear to be a lot of customers who try to outdo each other in finding justification for the higher prices. Many believe all the whining from the LDS's who complain that they just can't make a buck at the prices the competition offers. The competition proves it can be done.
I've seen well known small shops with good reputations loose many gear sales to other well known larger shops with poor reputations - because of their prices (from talking to other divers).
I can't help but think, from my perspective - out looking in, that if these small shops made their prices competitive instead of justifying their high prices, they would make a lot more money through volume and overall sales increase from higher traffic. Before you guys start saying it can't be done, and finding all the reasons why, let me just ask you, have you shop owners tried? Have you try to find the reasons why you should do this and how?Have you as a customer seen your shop try this strategy?
One shop may sell nitros fills for 4.75, the one Genesis mentioned, while another one sell it for 9.00. Same gas, similar overhead expenses. Free enterprise at work. The same can be said about scuba gear in general, wether comparing LDS to LDS or LDS to internet, or internet to internet. There will always be some difference in overhead cost from business to business. Some people are simply able to run a business more efficiently then others.
What I find peculiar to this industry is that there appear to be a lot of customers who try to outdo each other in finding justification for the higher prices. Many believe all the whining from the LDS's who complain that they just can't make a buck at the prices the competition offers. The competition proves it can be done.
I've seen well known small shops with good reputations loose many gear sales to other well known larger shops with poor reputations - because of their prices (from talking to other divers).
I can't help but think, from my perspective - out looking in, that if these small shops made their prices competitive instead of justifying their high prices, they would make a lot more money through volume and overall sales increase from higher traffic. Before you guys start saying it can't be done, and finding all the reasons why, let me just ask you, have you shop owners tried? Have you try to find the reasons why you should do this and how?Have you as a customer seen your shop try this strategy?
Dear Genesis:
Neither does asking you questions.
Repeat after me. "Facts are important. Opinions aren't" Repeat as necessary until you understand why no one has supported your claims.
Dear Scuba:
I'm not supporting higher prices. I'm supporting each LDS's right to operate as it sees fit and without unfounded accusations by people with WAY too much time on their hands.
My LDS provides "to die for" service. I'm willing to pay extra for that.
The LDS owner doesn't cry that he can't make money if he lowers his prices. He says that (1) he sells the best products; (2) he provides the best service; and (3) you get what you pay for.
The guy closer to my house provides lousy service and can't fill Nitrox. He charges less for some of the same brands than my LDS. However, he doesn't sell the higher end stuff and doesn't stock anything.
I don't use this shop because his service is lousy, the shop is not as nice and the dives that shop runs are not as interesting.
Besides, I'm not willing to buy my life support equipment from the "Home Depot" of dive shops. I'd rather buy it from the guy who knows me, knows how I dive, knows what I like and actually has a vested interest in my business.
Each shop must determine what market it will service. Some will go the bargain basement route and provide minimal support. Other will charge more and provide full service. That fact that they do so simply doesn't bother me.
Each shop is free to choose
Neither does asking you questions.
Repeat after me. "Facts are important. Opinions aren't" Repeat as necessary until you understand why no one has supported your claims.
Dear Scuba:
I'm not supporting higher prices. I'm supporting each LDS's right to operate as it sees fit and without unfounded accusations by people with WAY too much time on their hands.
My LDS provides "to die for" service. I'm willing to pay extra for that.
The LDS owner doesn't cry that he can't make money if he lowers his prices. He says that (1) he sells the best products; (2) he provides the best service; and (3) you get what you pay for.
The guy closer to my house provides lousy service and can't fill Nitrox. He charges less for some of the same brands than my LDS. However, he doesn't sell the higher end stuff and doesn't stock anything.
I don't use this shop because his service is lousy, the shop is not as nice and the dives that shop runs are not as interesting.
Besides, I'm not willing to buy my life support equipment from the "Home Depot" of dive shops. I'd rather buy it from the guy who knows me, knows how I dive, knows what I like and actually has a vested interest in my business.
Each shop must determine what market it will service. Some will go the bargain basement route and provide minimal support. Other will charge more and provide full service. That fact that they do so simply doesn't bother me.
Each shop is free to choose
Why together, you guys can start up a chain of excellent shops with top quality gear and instruction and services and low prices, too!
I can't wait!
Rick
King Kong Matt
Contributor
You're unreal...I never once suggested that price fixing didn't exist. I only suggested that your argument that be backed up by something other than "I know...I've done the work."
My complaint is the same now as it was in the beginning of this thread...either put your money where your mouth is or go pound sand.
If you're so concerned about market practices among LDSs in your community, open one of your own and smother the comptetition...but you won't do that, which leads me (and apparently everyone else who has posted to this thread) to believe that you are just interested in complaining.
My complaint: people who complain for the sake of the complaining.
P.S. - Does it concern you at all that everyone who has replied to this thread disagrees with you?
P.P.S. - You never answered my question about your PC. You're not a hypocrite right? Price fixing is price fixing regardless of whether or not its the scuba industry the auto industry or the software industry...you're not running the OEM copy of Windows that was forced down the throat of the PC manufacturer...right?
Can I come? Can I? Can I?
King Kong Matt
Contributor
Provided you're interested in SASY...sure
:yea: :rolling:
in this business are something that just astounds me.
You owe no business a thing. Not allegience, not loyalty. Nothing.
Note that I said owe before you document your lack of reading comprehension in public.
Defending someone's higher prices is pure folly.
How much has the price fixing cost these shops? I don't know, in total. But what I do know is that two divers who I am acquainted with and dive with often around here bought complete setups recently.
One of them bought a BC from a local shop due to a deal they offered, but all of the remaining gear came from mail order places such as LP!
One thing I learned from my 10+ years running a retail and service business is that your margin is ZERO on an item you don't sell at all.
The shops in question around here lost several thousand dollars worth of sales, and many hundreds of dollars worth of profits.
Both of these divers would have spent a hundred bucks or a bit more over LP's prices for their gear locally.
Neither of them would (or did) spend close to twice LP's prices.
So what did these shops do when faced with these customers in their locations, who expressed that their prices were just simply too high compared to LP and the other online sellers?
They all - to a one - started lying.
One claimed that LP sold "bait and switch" gear - that you'd order a particular reg and something else - much less, of course - would arrive in the box.
Another claimed that LP was selling counterfeit equipment that lacked serial numbers entirely (that is, completely counterfeit)
A third tried the game of "it'll come unassembled, and we'll charge you $200 to put it together if you buy from them, and if you try to do it yourself it'll kill you the first time you use it and besides you need tools you don't have."
Now, I was not the purchaser in any of these transactions. But, just a month or so before, I had purchased an R380 as a backup reg from LP after finding that it was HALF as expensive there as at one of the LDSs in the area. It came in the original box, with the original SP octo hose and with the original manual. It had a serial number on it and was clearly not a counterfeit product. It also worked just fine out of the box, and required only that I screw it onto my first stage. I have since tuned it a bit more to my liking, but it didn't "require" that in any way - that was a personal preference thing and not something I would have gotten from a shop anyway, since there's no way for some reg tech to know how I prefer my regs to breathe (nor are they going to deal with the inevitable come-backs for 90+% of the people if they set a reg up fairly close to the limits as the seats take a set; I, on the other hand, have no problem making a subsequent adjustment!)
Every one of the shops who did that left a bad taste in my mouth. Why? These are friends - and fellow divers - without whom I'd have fewer people to dive with. If they had not had a second opinion - in this case, mine - they would probably have simply not bought the gear at all, and would have dove FAR less often.
As it sits one of them dives with a SP Mk25/S600/R380 setup that they got from LP. Top quality gear. The other has an older setup that he got from a diver who had barely used it; a MK10+ / G200B + R190. The latter is an older piece of kit, but didn't even need to be torn down - it worked just fine as it showed up.
Now tell me - if you're Mr. Shop Owner - is it better to NOT sell that regulator or to sell it at $50 over cost?
How much profit do you make with it in the display case?
Assuming you can replace it in the case, a sale is a sale, provided its at a profit. While there is a counter-balancing point in that if you sell cheaply and it gets around you'll have every customer demanding that price, the simple fact of the matter is that today the options are there for EVERYONE - to go to LP, DiveInn, or one of the others.
When you, as a retailer, resort to LYING in an attempt to protect your margin you destroy the basis of commerce and added value between you and I. Once that has happened you are no better (or worse) than the local store with a six pack of beer - unless you're the cheapest of the four at the corner, you simply won't get the business from me.
Kong - no, I'm not running an OEM version of Windows. I run a mix of software on the machines in my home, none of them are OEM, and with the exception of a laptop none of them CAME with an OEM package - I don't reward monopolists and price-fixers. Besides, its far cheaper to build your own PCs these days.
You owe no business a thing. Not allegience, not loyalty. Nothing.
Note that I said owe before you document your lack of reading comprehension in public.
Defending someone's higher prices is pure folly.
How much has the price fixing cost these shops? I don't know, in total. But what I do know is that two divers who I am acquainted with and dive with often around here bought complete setups recently.
One of them bought a BC from a local shop due to a deal they offered, but all of the remaining gear came from mail order places such as LP!
One thing I learned from my 10+ years running a retail and service business is that your margin is ZERO on an item you don't sell at all.
The shops in question around here lost several thousand dollars worth of sales, and many hundreds of dollars worth of profits.
Both of these divers would have spent a hundred bucks or a bit more over LP's prices for their gear locally.
Neither of them would (or did) spend close to twice LP's prices.
So what did these shops do when faced with these customers in their locations, who expressed that their prices were just simply too high compared to LP and the other online sellers?
They all - to a one - started lying.
One claimed that LP sold "bait and switch" gear - that you'd order a particular reg and something else - much less, of course - would arrive in the box.
Another claimed that LP was selling counterfeit equipment that lacked serial numbers entirely (that is, completely counterfeit)
A third tried the game of "it'll come unassembled, and we'll charge you $200 to put it together if you buy from them, and if you try to do it yourself it'll kill you the first time you use it and besides you need tools you don't have."
Now, I was not the purchaser in any of these transactions. But, just a month or so before, I had purchased an R380 as a backup reg from LP after finding that it was HALF as expensive there as at one of the LDSs in the area. It came in the original box, with the original SP octo hose and with the original manual. It had a serial number on it and was clearly not a counterfeit product. It also worked just fine out of the box, and required only that I screw it onto my first stage. I have since tuned it a bit more to my liking, but it didn't "require" that in any way - that was a personal preference thing and not something I would have gotten from a shop anyway, since there's no way for some reg tech to know how I prefer my regs to breathe (nor are they going to deal with the inevitable come-backs for 90+% of the people if they set a reg up fairly close to the limits as the seats take a set; I, on the other hand, have no problem making a subsequent adjustment!)
Every one of the shops who did that left a bad taste in my mouth. Why? These are friends - and fellow divers - without whom I'd have fewer people to dive with. If they had not had a second opinion - in this case, mine - they would probably have simply not bought the gear at all, and would have dove FAR less often.
As it sits one of them dives with a SP Mk25/S600/R380 setup that they got from LP. Top quality gear. The other has an older setup that he got from a diver who had barely used it; a MK10+ / G200B + R190. The latter is an older piece of kit, but didn't even need to be torn down - it worked just fine as it showed up.
Now tell me - if you're Mr. Shop Owner - is it better to NOT sell that regulator or to sell it at $50 over cost?
How much profit do you make with it in the display case?
Assuming you can replace it in the case, a sale is a sale, provided its at a profit. While there is a counter-balancing point in that if you sell cheaply and it gets around you'll have every customer demanding that price, the simple fact of the matter is that today the options are there for EVERYONE - to go to LP, DiveInn, or one of the others.
When you, as a retailer, resort to LYING in an attempt to protect your margin you destroy the basis of commerce and added value between you and I. Once that has happened you are no better (or worse) than the local store with a six pack of beer - unless you're the cheapest of the four at the corner, you simply won't get the business from me.
Kong - no, I'm not running an OEM version of Windows. I run a mix of software on the machines in my home, none of them are OEM, and with the exception of a laptop none of them CAME with an OEM package - I don't reward monopolists and price-fixers. Besides, its far cheaper to build your own PCs these days.
drizzt117
Contributor
Man, can't we all just get along.
ut:
Thomas
ut: Thomas
King Kong Matt
Contributor
My friend had a sister that knew a guy who once worked with this dude whose brother's girlfriends' parents lived in Destin...and they said...
Um...yeah...
Where's the beef?
Um...yeah...
Where's the beef?
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