Suggestion Feedback on keeping ScubaBoard members

[gypsyjim]

This question is directed at all members, new and old. It is actually a multiple part question, and is designed to get us all thinking about what ScubaBoard is, or could be for someone just discovering us today or tomorrow.

Two weeks ago on Utila Colleen and I were part of 4 couples with no previous contact who were diving on the same boat for a week, so we had lots of time to chat. It turned out that 5 (6 including myself) of the 9 divers including the DM, were all members of ScubaBoard at one time or another, but I was the only actively participating SM user.

A subsequent conversation with a friend who is also a moderator, has had me thinking about this, so here are my questions:

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1) What attracted you to ScubaBoard in the first place?

2) Are you satisfied that the board addresses your needs adequately? And if not what would you change, if you could to make it do so

3) Why do you think other folks who have joined, have not stayed around?

4) Do you have ideas on what the board either did not provide well, or what might have done to scare them away, without becoming participating members?

5) Do you have ideas or suggestions of new ways to both attract and keep new members, new divers involved, and satisfied with this forum?
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---------- Post added March 3rd, 2014 at 08:30 AM ----------

I will start by adding my own 2 cents.

I discovered SB while researching a dive trip back in '05, and was not a terribly active member for some time. I did though, find the info I was seeking.

I did soon after that did make some friends on the board, as both DeputyDan and Herman offered advice and invited my family to join their group for a trip to Bonaire.

I also later asked for underwater photography advice, and got a lot of help from such diverse members as ScubaSteve and DandyDon, who were more than willing to help a struggling novice.

I had a few conflicts in some of the threads along the way, especially early on, with some of the more vocal know it alls, but while that slowed me down a bit and kept me quiet, it did not scare me off. I just spent more time lurking till I became more comfortable standing up for my beliefs, and not afraid of the loud mouths. It just took me time to realize by lurking that they were a small minority, and not particularly as well respected universally as they might have thought, which made me feel less the outsider.

(Note) I think a lot of that 'know it all' attitude seems to have disappeared from the boards, or at least become far less of an issue. I heard a lot of feedback from non member divers between '95 and about 2000 that this "slamming of 'stupid questions' " was a big turn off, but I do not sense this same complaint from my more recent contactsd, when discussing SB. Now it seems more like SB is not supplying what divers are seeking, and they are just moving on to other sources of info.

I know many folks have moved on to FB, but while I enjoy FB a lot myself, I have never seen it as having the potential to reach as many divers, or to serve as a useful search base for dive related questions.

 

[Diver0001]

Those are some good suggestions, Ricky. Thank you.

R..

 

[chillyinCanada]

Seems to me that mods already do modify posts by excising offending portions. Ive seen this a few times, is that not so mods?

 

[Diver0001]

It happens but more often than not we delete the entire post. I think what Ricky is saying is that by doing so we're throwing out the baby with the bath water in some cases.

R..

 

[gypsyjim]

It happens but more often than not we delete the entire post. I think what Ricky is saying is that by doing so we're throwing out the baby with the bath water in some cases.

R..

It seems to me at least that he is also saying that it loses a "teachable moment", for both the poster, and other readers?

 

[The Chairman]

So I offer for consideration the idea that mods would split off threads that veer off the topic of the OP into dead-horse beating.

This idea has serious merit. We might even name it "Ricky's Dead Horse Beating Stable". Seriously, we'll discuss this a bit in the back room.

but that they excise that portion of the post that constitutes a personal attack, expressly inserting a moderator's notation in the post that a comment has been excised as a personal attack and noting that personal attacks are not permitted in SB. IMO, deleting a post entirely or, worse, an entire thread and notifying the offender is an ineffective way to encourage civility. Providing an explanation by PM to the offender only informs the offender.

Excising just a bit happens a lot. However, we have felt that mod communications to the users should remain private. This forum has been built on trust and protecting your privacy is an important part of that trust. Earlier a user complained that we had deleted his post while leaving the rude post he was reacting to, to stand. How much more alienated would he have felt if he got a public denouncement for calling someone idiotic? FWIW, after re-reading the "rude" post several times, I could only surmise that to him, rude means that someone simply disagrees with him publicly. We actually deal with a lot of reported posts that are nothing more than indignation that someone would dare to rudely post a differing opinion. Kinda funny.

As for snipping out a piece of a post, while it happens a lot, we do run it through a few thoughts. First, we usually ask the user to self edit their thread if it's minor and they still have time. We really don't want to be responsible for inadvertently changing the meaning of a post. However, we often do snip out bits if the post won't lose it's meaning and if there isn't too much to edit. Sure, we sometimes get a bombastic demand that we either restore the post or delete it entirely and usually we'll opt for the latter. Oh the drama!

There is no doubt: I'm the most moderated person on the Board. I am not immune to my mods coming in and deleting and/or hacking my posts to pieces. They'll never get an angry word from me about their intercessions either. When people are too close to a discussion they lose perspective and make bad or emotional decisions. Rather than bitch and moan that the mods are out to get you, just take it like a diver and learn from your mistakes. This is especially important if you don't see it as a mistake in the first place. Cultivate a forum awareness that reads posts from a mod's perspective. They aren't here to advance any agenda but friendliness. Chances are, if you've been moderated, you just ain't being friendly.

 

[danvolker]

OK, major disagreement here....I think the mods are way out of control in "deciding" that someone has veered off-topic, and the they "RUIN" what was an active, interesting and "normal" conversation, by artificially narrowing it to be just the narrow topic of the OP.
In a normal conversation at a real place..say at lunch at a table----someone will start with a topic, and you WILL get tangents....the tangents are good--if you did not have them, the conversations would be boring.

Having a bunch of mods running around killing off-topic posts, is like hugely annoying, and bad for the board.

 

[gypsyjim]

How far off topic, is off topic?

That seems hard to define, and would almost have to depend on the character of each individual thread.

---------- Post added March 20th, 2014 at 08:31 AM ----------

"Judgement Calls" are tough because everyone sees things somewhat differently.
That is where arguments start.

 

[danvolker]

How far off topic, is off topic?

That seems hard to define, and would almost have to depend on the character of each individual thread.

---------- Post added March 20th, 2014 at 08:31 AM ----------

"Judgement Calls" are tough because everyone sees things somewhat differently.
That is where arguments start.

We have a perfect example right now......the Deep air thread.....that got split to one with Sheck.....
It is perfect, in that the moderators involved have actually done a good job---this must be the "A-Team" of moderators, and they decided at one point, that the topic had deviated so far from the OP's topic, that they should split this to another thread.....
Now with the rules of SB in place....you just knew this would happen....and I don't see it as "bothering anyone", and we all know it had to be done due to the guidelines.... On the other hand, this WAS the kind of tangent that WOULD come along in a normal, real life conversation, and it is the kind of thing that keeps the interest up very high in a conversation.....rather than just beating minutia in a very narrow target, to death.

So when the split happens, a whole bunch of us get "shell-shocked", then we recover, and try to find our way in this new "2 room conversation", and this is harder than just chatting in one room...so to speak.

But again, I have no gripe with this particular thread--it is just a good example of policy, and what it will do to a large group in a conversation.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think if posters exercised more consideration and restraint in terms of what they considered "valid" and "interesting", then the mods wouldn't have to be called on so often to exercise judgment in determining what's appropriate. Forums are split into topical subjects for a reason. If you firmly believe that only one specific type of equipment is appropriate and safe for all kinds of diving, that's a "valid" topic ... I won't call it interesting, but that's a value judgment. Posting that opinion in a thread discussing an accident where someone died ... as in, "if only they'd chosen the same equipment I use this wouldn't have happened", is neither valid nor interesting ... it simply steers the conversation down a path that's best discussed elsewhere ... as in an equipment forum.

The way I see it, if we exercised more self-control over what we say and where we say it, there'd be a lot less moderation. I can't imagine that mods really get much pleasure out of removing or editing threads ... it's a waste of their time that they'd prefer using in the same way the rest of us do ... by participating in conversations that are interesting to them. Then, of course, they're going to have to deal with the inevitable whiners who are going to complain about ANY revisions to their own posts ... because their opinions, regardless of how expressed, are "valid" and "interesting" in their mind ... therefore they must be for everyone else reading the thread.

Some folks just need to man up sometimes ... I don't hesitate to express myself on this board, and sometimes I cross a line and get moderated. But whenever I get contacted by a mod that my post is being edited or removed, I take responsibility for what I said, accept the consequences, and apologize to the mod for having to waste their time ... it's not their fault the post is being moderated, it's mine. Nobody likes being moderated ... the whiners aren't unique in that respect ... but I think overall the mods show a lot of restraint. If you feel you're being over moderated, perhaps it'd be a good idea to look in the mirror and ask yourself why that is ... I very rarely see examples of moderation that I'd consider unfair or unwarranted, if you look at it objectively. And even then I think the moderator is acting in good faith ... it's just that we don't agree on which side of the judgment call the action they take should fall.

It ain't easy dealing with all these different perspectives and personalities every day ... particularly the ones who hold very strong opinions about things like what equipment is inappropriate, or what agencies are inadequate. When they express those opinions in ways that are offensive to the people who use that equipment, or who get trained by that agency, someone's going to complain ... and a moderator is going to get involved. I think the person stating the strong opinion is aware of the fact that they're going to offend someone, and really doesn't care. Well enough ... nobody says you have to. But then don't complain when your post gets edited or removed. I, for one, don't want to see this place turn into rec.scuba ... no matter how much some folks look back on that forum as the good ol' days ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I think if posters exercised more consideration and restraint in terms of what they considered "valid" and "interesting", then the mods wouldn't have to be called on so often to exercise judgment in determining what's appropriate. Forums are split into topical subjects for a reason. If you firmly believe that only one specific type of equipment is appropriate and safe for all kinds of diving, that's a "valid" topic ... I won't call it interesting, but that's a value judgment. Posting that opinion in a thread discussing an accident where someone died ... as in, "if only they'd chosen the same equipment I used this wouldn't have happened", is neither valid nor interesting ... it simply steers the conversation down a path that's best discussed elsewhere ... as in an equipment forum.

The way I see it, if we exercised more self-control over what we say and where we say it, there'd be a lot less moderation. I can't imagine that mods really get much pleasure out of removing or editing threads ... it's a waste of their time that they'd prefer using in the same way the rest of us do ... by participating in conversations that are interesting to them. Then, of course, they're going to have to deal with the inevitable whiners who are going to complain about ANY revisions to their own posts ... because their opinions, regardless of how expressed, are "valid" and "interesting" in their mind ... therefore they must be for everyone else reading the thread.

Some folks just need to man up sometimes ... I don't hesitate to express myself on this board, and sometimes I cross a line and get moderated. But whenever I get contacted by a mod that my post is being edited or removed, I take responsibility for what I said, accept the consequences, and apologize to the mod for having to waste their time ... it's not their fault the post is being moderated, it's mine. Nobody likes being moderated ... the whiners aren't unique in that respect ... but I think overall the mods show a lot of restraint. If you feel you're being over moderated, perhaps it'd be a good idea to look in the mirror and ask yourself why that is ... I very rarely see examples of moderation that I'd consider unfair or unwarranted, if you look at it objectively. And even then I think the moderator is acting in good faith ... it's just that we don't agree on which side of the judgment call the action they take should fall.

It ain't easy dealing with all these different perspectives and personalities every day ... particularly the ones who hold very strong opinions about things like what equipment is inappropriate, or what agencies are inadequate. When they express those opinions in ways that are offensive to the people who use that equipment, or who get trained by that agency, someone's going to be offended ... and I think the person stating that opinion is aware of it, and really doesn't care. Well enough ... nobody says you have to. But then don't complain when your post gets edited or removed. I, for one, don't want to see this place turn into rec.scuba ... no matter how much some folks look back on that forum as the good ol' days ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Firstly, this could easily turn into another argument between "Dan and Bob"...which would mean that it would need to be split off or deleted.

On the other hand....You are ignoring that some people think with creativity, and some others think like accountants or bean counters--in a narrow and focused and blah manner.

In the Accident analysis thread....the bean counter mentality is to keep only to the OP issues, what ever they are/were. I see this as a travesty, as it could easily ignore some very major points that might save lives in the future, if there is ever a SIMILAR situation that some member here is faced with....but is now better prepared. TO ME, THIS "IS" WHAT THE ACCIDENTS AND INCIDENTS forum IS FOR. It is for seeing how someone had a problem, and figuring out a better way that this person could have handled it...so that there would have been no accident. To me, this is NOT a place to be posting we are sorry for the passing....that is a different forum. This is about seeing what is wrong, and fixing it.

You are referencing my supposedly going off topic, on the Indonesian divers accident.....Here there were deaths, and there was a message that the bean counters would never hear or consider...The "message" was, that if you KNOW you will be diving in a place with big currents--whether always big, or occasional, then it means you need to have PLANS in place for you and your buddy --for if and when a big current becomes a problem. Actually, even before this, you nreally have to have a plan for what you will do at any moment, in a huge current....And this was ignored and lost in the thread. I tried to address it, and since you and others did not like my using Split Fins as part of the problem ( say 20% of the bad issue I was explaining was split fin related--the rest was the bigger issues--poor propulsion skills--no knowledge of how to swim to shore -sideways to a big current.....not being a good swimmer as is COMMON in this part of the world with dive tourists that should not even have C cards..etc.)

And the bean counters won....all my comments were off topic, even though they may well have saved several divers in the future, if they reflected on this, and decided they had things they should address before going to a place with this kind of dive conditions.