Suggestion Feedback on keeping ScubaBoard members

[gypsyjim]

This question is directed at all members, new and old. It is actually a multiple part question, and is designed to get us all thinking about what ScubaBoard is, or could be for someone just discovering us today or tomorrow.

Two weeks ago on Utila Colleen and I were part of 4 couples with no previous contact who were diving on the same boat for a week, so we had lots of time to chat. It turned out that 5 (6 including myself) of the 9 divers including the DM, were all members of ScubaBoard at one time or another, but I was the only actively participating SM user.

A subsequent conversation with a friend who is also a moderator, has had me thinking about this, so here are my questions:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) What attracted you to ScubaBoard in the first place?

2) Are you satisfied that the board addresses your needs adequately? And if not what would you change, if you could to make it do so

3) Why do you think other folks who have joined, have not stayed around?

4) Do you have ideas on what the board either did not provide well, or what might have done to scare them away, without becoming participating members?

5) Do you have ideas or suggestions of new ways to both attract and keep new members, new divers involved, and satisfied with this forum?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________________________________________________________

---------- Post added March 3rd, 2014 at 08:30 AM ----------

I will start by adding my own 2 cents.

I discovered SB while researching a dive trip back in '05, and was not a terribly active member for some time. I did though, find the info I was seeking.

I did soon after that did make some friends on the board, as both DeputyDan and Herman offered advice and invited my family to join their group for a trip to Bonaire.

I also later asked for underwater photography advice, and got a lot of help from such diverse members as ScubaSteve and DandyDon, who were more than willing to help a struggling novice.

I had a few conflicts in some of the threads along the way, especially early on, with some of the more vocal know it alls, but while that slowed me down a bit and kept me quiet, it did not scare me off. I just spent more time lurking till I became more comfortable standing up for my beliefs, and not afraid of the loud mouths. It just took me time to realize by lurking that they were a small minority, and not particularly as well respected universally as they might have thought, which made me feel less the outsider.

(Note) I think a lot of that 'know it all' attitude seems to have disappeared from the boards, or at least become far less of an issue. I heard a lot of feedback from non member divers between '95 and about 2000 that this "slamming of 'stupid questions' " was a big turn off, but I do not sense this same complaint from my more recent contactsd, when discussing SB. Now it seems more like SB is not supplying what divers are seeking, and they are just moving on to other sources of info.

I know many folks have moved on to FB, but while I enjoy FB a lot myself, I have never seen it as having the potential to reach as many divers, or to serve as a useful search base for dive related questions.

 

[danvolker]

Rec.scuba was actually a great place to chat and exchange information from the early 90's to late 90's....I don't recall exactly when, but all of a sudden it got plagued by a few individuals with a serious agenda to RUIN Rec.scuba for everyone.... Barney was the name of one, but there were several....and there was no mechanism to exclude these trolls. Does anyone else remember who suddenly this hit?

Prior to these few trolls that actively shut down the enjoyable threads....there never seemed to be any real problem with the lack of moderation.

 

[gypsyjim]

Rec.scuba was actually a great place to chat and exchange information from the early 90's to late 90's....I don't recall exactly when, but all of a sudden it got plagued by a few individuals with a serious agenda to RUIN Rec.scuba for everyone.... Barney was the name of one, but there were several....and there was no mechanism to exclude these trolls. Does anyone else remember who suddenly this hit?

Prior to these few trolls that actively shut down the enjoyable threads....there never seemed to be any real problem with the lack of moderation.

Much as I hate getting tickets from time to time, without an occasional speed trap I fear the highways would be a much more dangerous place to be.

Without moderating I am sure that SB would not be the same either, because some folks just need to know what the limits are, and then push them just a bit more, to make sure there really ARE limits.

 

[boulderjohn]

Prior to these few trolls that actively shut down the enjoyable threads....there never seemed to be any real problem with the lack of moderation.

My first stint as am moderator was a newsgroup back in those days. I learned a lot from that experience.

What happened was that two of the students in one of our high schools (Columbine) killed a number of their classmates. While the shooting was still active, we did not know what was going on for sure. We heard of some vast Internet-based conspiracy, and I was assigned to scour the newsgroups to see what was going on. It was quite an interesting experience, and I saw what great potential there was. In fact, by making a few inquisitive posts in a couple of groups, I was able to get the sleuths participating in it to do a very effective job in gaining information--mostly squelching false rumors. I saw, too, that there was a whole lot of those false rumors flying around, so I proposed to the school district that we create our own newsgroup with an official school district moderator. That way there would be one newsgroup people could go to knowing that the information they were getting was official and up to date. The district agreed, and I was assigned to fill the moderator role.

It worked great. We had thousands of participants, and we were pretty successful in keeping false rumors out of the discussion. We had some real cranks participate early on, but we took care of them. The ones who made death threats against me for my responses to their incendiary posts, for example, got visits from the FBI, a protection other newsgroup moderators did not enjoy.

As time went on and the rumors died down, the newsgroup continued with a host of dedicated followers. I thoroughly enjoyed that continuing role, with its focus still on education issues and school safety. Unfortunately, a couple of participants got increasingly destructive in their comments, and I struggled with how to deal with them. I wanted to be as fair and inclusive as possible. I eventually realized that a couple of them were probably bipolar, and when things were not right with them, things were very wrong with them. The atmosphere got so toxic that I had to shut it all down. If I had been able to deal more effectively with those venomous few, we could have continued those excellent discussions. I should have kicked them out, even though they were our most prolific participants.

About that same time, some of my school reform efforts put me into contact with research regarding successful and unsuccessful reform efforts. I learned that healthy debate among a faculty was critical, but that even one or two toxic individuals can destroy it all completely. Incredibly enough, with a faculty of 100 or more teachers, one or two disruptors can destroy that vital communication of ideas.

I apply all of that to this forum. Healthy and vigorous debate is its lifeblood, but we cannot allow truly toxic individuals to ruin the atmosphere. We are better off without such individuals.

 

[The Chairman]

One undercurrent I see developing in the thread though is an exploration of some of the tension between various members, and some members the staff and the ownership itself, that has caused more than a few members to quit posting.
Since I started this thread I have had several old members contact me outside of SB to explain why they have left the board, and universally they have expressed anger at the ownership and not so much the staff of mods themselves.
The words "bullying" and "it's my playground, I make the rules" have cropped up in those conversations now more than once, but as I was not a witness or participant in whatever went on in those exchanges I am not in a position to make any judgement. Personally, while I have not always agreed with decisions made by the staff of SB, and have said so, , I also have never felt that I was not heard and responded to honestly and fairly.

I find this kind of funny and I can probably name the individuals who sent this to you.

For the most part, SB is moderated by consensus. In fact, I try not to give my opinion in the back room unless specifically asked or if I see unfairness or unkindness. I don't see this as NetDocBoard so I don't mind empowering others. Most that know me will tell you that I am all about being fair and friendly. When the mods make a decision, I am apt to stand by that decision unless I find it morally objectionable. To whit, I find simple meanness, being unfriendly and any kind of bigotry as being morally objectionable. I don't care who you sleep with, if you lie to some one or what some twist morality to mean. Furthermore, I don't mind if you disagree with me, the staff or others here on ScubaBoard. I don't even mind if you think I'm an idiot. People take advantage of my good nature, kindness and patience all the time. I'm actually quite OK with that. However, I do mind if you come into my home and disrupt it continually. I do mind if you attack my staff or ScubaBoard uses. I mind a lot if you simply continue to bash any agency that you don't belong to. On top of that I can't tolerate bigotry of any sort. So sure, I can be a bully if you force me into that role. I get that a few people don't like it when they can't have their way here on ScubaBoard by being mean and I don't accommodate them. Well, Toughie Kaboombas!

PS, if you were to do a poll among the people we've banned both short term and permanently, the vast majority think I'm the one who banned them. The truth is that I probably ban less than %2 and that we have collectively only banned between %1 and %2 of the registered users. Not too bad, really. I'm only guessing at these numbers, but they seem about right. Color me too lazy to go do the maths!

Remember, there are always two sides to every story. Me? I say the proof is in the pudding. We've got a good thing going at this point. I have the users and the mods to thank for that... and in that order. Depending on the time of year and the current controversies, we get from 20,000 to 40,000 unique visitors a day. registered users rarely make up %10 of that number. You're like the people who write the letters to the editors. Everyone else comes to read what you have to say. As John pointed out: too bland and then we really have nothing to say. Too spicy and few will be able to tolerate participation. Like I posted: we've got it good right now.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I participate in some other forums in addition to ScubaBoard. I would like to talk about two of them in which I have stopped participating, although I go back to each occasionally. Perhaps my reasons for not participating in those forums any more may be instructive.

Forum One: This forum was created years ago by some people who were not happy with ScubaBoard. If you think ScubaBoard is focused on technical diving, you should see this one. If you think ScubaBoard is rude, you should see this one. Ask a question someone thinks is stupid, and you will be told it was a stupid question, and the language used might include a whole host of words not allowed on ScubaBoard. A lot of people quit using that forum, and someone recently told me that it is better under new ownership, but I haven't checked it out to see.

Forum Two: This one was as opposite from Forum One as possible. Everyone was quite polite, and there were no dramatic exchanges that I could see. In fact, I had trouble finding anything on it that captured my interest. Like ScubaBoard, it had an Instructor to Instructor forum, and I invited a number of instructors to join that forum so we could discuss a topic openly without the drama that would happen if we tried it in the ScubaBoard Instructor to Instructor forum. It worked well, and when we were done, I wrote a message summarizing the situation. More than a year passed while I worked on the results of our discussion, a year in which we got an important article published as a result of that discussion. After that fruitful year, I went back into that Instructor to Instructor forum to report on those results, and when I did, I discovered that the last post anyone had made in that forum was mine from more than a year before.

So I have stopped using two forums at the extreme ends of the spectrum. Once was so volatile and rude that I was repulsed by it. The other was so very tame that nothing of interest was ever happening. I hope ScubaBoard can steer a path somewhere in the middle.

I think I know exactly which scuba forums those are ... the same two I stopped visiting, for pretty much the same reason. AFAIK, I'm still a moderator on the second one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added March 19th, 2014 at 10:36 AM ----------

However, I do mind if you come into my home and disrupt it continually. I do mind if you attack my staff or ScubaBoard uses. I mind a lot if you simply continue to bash any agency that you don't belong to. On top of that I can't tolerate bigotry of any sort. So sure, I can be a bully if you force me into that role. I get that a few people don't like it when they can't have their way here on ScubaBoard by being mean and I don't accommodate them. Well, Toughie Kaboombas!

You big ol' meanie you ... denying people their First Amendment Rights and all ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

You big ol' meanie you ... denying people their First Amendment Rights and all ...

Get with the program: I'm a bully, not an ol' meanie.

 

[The Chairman]

You know that actually has merit. If you can like or report a post why not a congeniality rating. Personally I have problems with very few on SB. For me its consider the source or just accept that someone does not share the same opinion. Thats the price of free exchange of ideas. Then when someone calles me a nub and he has a high jerk rating i just say consider the source, and move on. Good idea dan

OK, I don't want to sound like I am boasting, or sound obnoxious....
I am thinking Pete ( Net Doc) could help with this....each of us could start building an "Obnoxious Rating" that anyone viewing a post can contribute to.....those of us that are unknowingly obnoxious--and start building a high rating, will see that we need to alter our posting styles...though I am sure some of the posters here will relish the high rating, and glory in it

We have the "Thanks" program that is not available on all of our forums (like the Pub). We tried the reputation thing and that got old for the mods FAST. However, if you left click on a person's name in the upper left of one of their posts, you can go to their profile. In it, you'll see the thanks they've gotten and the thanks they've given. I would suggest to use TSandM as your standard.

 

[nimoh]

You big ol' meanie you ... denying people their First Amendment Rights and all ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I realize you are kidding and I am probably going off topic opening myself up to some heavy-handed moderation, but moderating does not deny people their first amendment rights. The Bill of Rights is not absolute.

If you want to post a sign in my yard, you need my permission and without it, I will remove the sign (i.e. moderate). Keep putting up the sign, and I will file for a restraining order (i.e. banned). Ultimately, Scubaboard is Pete's yard.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I've participated for years on another message board. The owner of that board has really gone out of his way over the years to be fair but from time to time, he has virtually been forced to take action. That board does get toxic now and again. Recently he had to ban a longtime but very offensive member and even had to go so far as to shut down one of the subforums. About 4 people are in a complete rage about them being denied their constitutional right of free speech. Even more amusing to me is that the messsge board isn't even a U.S. board or subject matter.

---------- Post added March 19th, 2014 at 01:06 PM ----------

Over the years there have been moderators on that message board that abused their powers. They've all been replaced. And overall, that board is no longer as successful as it once was due to the abusive users ultimately being let alone for too long combined with the time during which moderators had not been fair and even. In any event, I'm interested to see what will become of that message board now that it is cleaned up.

 

[The Chairman]

I realize you are kidding and I am probably going off topic opening myself up to some heavy-handed moderation, but moderating does not deny people their first amendment rights. The Bill of Rights is not absolute.

If you want to post a sign in my yard, you need my permission and without it, I will remove the sign (i.e. moderate). Keep putting up the sign, and I will file for a restraining order (i.e. banned). Ultimately, Scubaboard is Pete's yard.

Bob was being mildly sarcastic. It's a Bob thing. I am not sure why you feel you face "some heavy-handed moderation" for simply disagreeing with him even though you really aren't.