wtcreaux
Contributor
Any updates on how father and son are doing??
Father and son run over by dive charter
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Short of witnessing the incident with my own eyes, which I did not do.... yes, I am pretty certain from the radio traffic that it was a drift dive.
Blue Sparkle
Contributor
I've dived with a few different ops in the Keys and some of them have 20+ years experience. Add "most other dive operations'" experience together and it would be hard for any one dive op to beat (simply due to the human lifespan). I'm not saying they are not very experienced, but this seems a bit over the top to me.
I hope we can find out what happened. I agree that it can be hard to see the transom area from a fly-bridge helm station. But...wouldn't there usually be a DM on the lower deck too as divers were prepping to enter the water? (At least when things were being done ideally?)
This sub-forum is not about establishing blame, but is about finding out what happened (if possible) and learning from it. If we can't find out (which is often the case), we still talk it over and try to learn things from what might have happened, and/or from what others say they might have done or not done (I've learned lots this way).
Blue Sparkle
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The last account I heard of this, was that the boat had been at the drop site for the drift dive, the father and son were not ready when the dive command was given, and were told to wait for a re-drop....which they did. The DM went in with the other divers....the boat made a big circle, and the father and sone were supposed to wait for the captain to tell them when to jump in....Here we can only guess that their inexperience led them to jump in when the boat came to a stop--without the captain giving the dive caommand, because he was planning on backing up til he ran over the bottom feature he just went over....If the pair had waited for the dive command, they would have had a good drop....inexperience, and/or, insufficiently authoritative instructions bt the Captain to WAIT untill he got in to position to tell them to jump in with the DIVE command..., we still don't know this yet....but you can imagine if the captain ran over a ledge he marked on his sonar, and went to idle, then decided he coasted to far, and would need to back up befor giving the dive cammand....the pair could have misinterpreted the coasting in to a stop as the time to dive....this would be wrong, but it makes mre sense than anything else so far...
Blue Sparkle
Contributor
Dan,
Thanks for that additional information (or, at least, hypothesis). While this is at least partially speculation for now, it could "explain" some of the things that seemed off. I'm thinking of things like:
1) From what I have seen, a pair of divers with one newer diver are usually not the first ones ready to go, but tend to take a bit longer getting gear on a ready, checked, etc. (Of course this is a gross generality only.) I was slightly surprised at the idea that they were ready early and jumped in ahead of the group.
2) This would fit with why there was not a DM near the transom for their drop.
3) Just in general I can "see" this happening. If, as you said, the divers were by themselves at the transom and saw that the boat had come back around over their drop spot and then it slowed to a stop. If I were in a buddy pair that had already missed the first drop, I could imagine feeling a bit rushed in my own mind, and eager to get back together with the group (presuming it was a group dive since the DM was in the water). Then, "okay, here we are, I recognize that ledge..."
Again, obviously not known facts, but I can see how it might fit the scenario. I can already think of a few things I will/would check and double check if/when I do a drift dive (one with a "hot drop" anyway; I've only done one but we went in from a moored boat).
Thanks for that additional information (or, at least, hypothesis). While this is at least partially speculation for now, it could "explain" some of the things that seemed off. I'm thinking of things like:
1) From what I have seen, a pair of divers with one newer diver are usually not the first ones ready to go, but tend to take a bit longer getting gear on a ready, checked, etc. (Of course this is a gross generality only.) I was slightly surprised at the idea that they were ready early and jumped in ahead of the group.
2) This would fit with why there was not a DM near the transom for their drop.
3) Just in general I can "see" this happening. If, as you said, the divers were by themselves at the transom and saw that the boat had come back around over their drop spot and then it slowed to a stop. If I were in a buddy pair that had already missed the first drop, I could imagine feeling a bit rushed in my own mind, and eager to get back together with the group (presuming it was a group dive since the DM was in the water). Then, "okay, here we are, I recognize that ledge..."
Again, obviously not known facts, but I can see how it might fit the scenario. I can already think of a few things I will/would check and double check if/when I do a drift dive (one with a "hot drop" anyway; I've only done one but we went in from a moored boat).
Tricia
Contributor
... which is why I usually avoid drift dives.
First, a big thanks to Dan Volker and BAGBUGGER for explaining so many things about drift diving. I'm sure a LOT of people reading this have learned something. (Me, too!)
Second, to explain to you why some of us don't like drift dives and prefer to "simply" jump off the back of a "stationary" boat:
1. I dive with a camera and strobe. To do the Navy Seal/kamakazi entry runs a risk of damaging my photography gear. So I do the big stride entry, signal I'm fine and then quickly swim back to the platform to get my camera. I then swim to the side of the boat (while clipping my camera gear on) and then descend by rope to the bar. This gives me a slow descent where I can check the gear and confirm that I'm equalizing OK. I should add that my buddy knows I'm going to do this and frankly, even if he/she does the drop entry, they're usually not that far ahead of me.
2. I have occasionally had ear/sinus problems. Not bad, but enough to know that I need to go down slowly. So I do the slow descent in #1.
3. (And I'm going to anger some of you by saying this): on the few drift dives I have done, I have noticed that the divers on the boat develop this "Top Gun" attitude, as if they ARE Navy Seals diving or jumping out of a plane. Everybody gets all rushed and agitated. Now, that's fine with me, but it's not why I dive. For me, diving is a zen sport, where I relax and enjoy what I see. Over the years, I've observed that there are 2 types of divers: those who dive to have the thrill of breathing underwater in what can be a very macho sport. And then those like me, for whom diving is simply the mechanism for getting underwater and seeing beautiful creatures and seascapes.
4. And lastly, I am TERRIFIED of boat propellers. So I hate the whole thing when you're coming back into the boat and the Captain's holding it in a current, so he has to run the boat while you're climbing back in.
Sorry for the long post. But seriously, back to the original post, do we have any updates on how the boy is doing? I really appreciate the family friend ("newfldiver", I think) for keeping us updated.
Dive safe!
Trish
First, a big thanks to Dan Volker and BAGBUGGER for explaining so many things about drift diving. I'm sure a LOT of people reading this have learned something. (Me, too!)
Second, to explain to you why some of us don't like drift dives and prefer to "simply" jump off the back of a "stationary" boat:
1. I dive with a camera and strobe. To do the Navy Seal/kamakazi entry runs a risk of damaging my photography gear. So I do the big stride entry, signal I'm fine and then quickly swim back to the platform to get my camera. I then swim to the side of the boat (while clipping my camera gear on) and then descend by rope to the bar. This gives me a slow descent where I can check the gear and confirm that I'm equalizing OK. I should add that my buddy knows I'm going to do this and frankly, even if he/she does the drop entry, they're usually not that far ahead of me.
2. I have occasionally had ear/sinus problems. Not bad, but enough to know that I need to go down slowly. So I do the slow descent in #1.
3. (And I'm going to anger some of you by saying this): on the few drift dives I have done, I have noticed that the divers on the boat develop this "Top Gun" attitude, as if they ARE Navy Seals diving or jumping out of a plane. Everybody gets all rushed and agitated. Now, that's fine with me, but it's not why I dive. For me, diving is a zen sport, where I relax and enjoy what I see. Over the years, I've observed that there are 2 types of divers: those who dive to have the thrill of breathing underwater in what can be a very macho sport. And then those like me, for whom diving is simply the mechanism for getting underwater and seeing beautiful creatures and seascapes.
4. And lastly, I am TERRIFIED of boat propellers. So I hate the whole thing when you're coming back into the boat and the Captain's holding it in a current, so he has to run the boat while you're climbing back in.
Sorry for the long post. But seriously, back to the original post, do we have any updates on how the boy is doing? I really appreciate the family friend ("newfldiver", I think) for keeping us updated.
Dive safe!
Trish
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Ayisha
Contributor
Trish, there's no reason that drift diving can't be relaxing and zen like. I've found drift dives to be exactly that. Usually, the buddies jump in fairly close together, descend together and stay together, no big deal. If the current is strong enough, you don't even have to kick or at worst, kick just a little. What could be easier? You see so much so effortlessly and use so little air doing so. I usually dive with a camera down south too, and I've never found it a problem for them to hand me my camera once I'm in. When getting back on the boat, some ops have a lift and you just sit on it and up you go. Some have a fins-on ladder and I've never found that to be a problem either. I believe they are slightly downcurrent of the divers when picking up and we just float right to the ladder. Around here in Ontario, the boat lets us off and then pick us up at a bay or site where they *know* that we're going to end up naturally in a specific time frame.
Some drift dives are very timed and goal-oriented to see something specific or miss it, but even then, many ops will drop you a little further away to make sure everyone descends in time. In those cases, I've asked to go first to make sure I can equalize slowly all the way down, and that hasn't been a problem. The majority of drift dives are not very timed or goal-oriented.
Drift diving can be a very relaxing, non-rushed experience.
Some drift dives are very timed and goal-oriented to see something specific or miss it, but even then, many ops will drop you a little further away to make sure everyone descends in time. In those cases, I've asked to go first to make sure I can equalize slowly all the way down, and that hasn't been a problem. The majority of drift dives are not very timed or goal-oriented.
Drift diving can be a very relaxing, non-rushed experience.
Tricia
Contributor
Thanks Ayisha, for giving the other side of it! Many people have told me how much they love drift diving. But I've just had some unpleasant experiences getting off and on to the boat. Your post made me realise that it's a matter of how the dive op sets things up.
Fingers still crossed for the boy.
Trish
Fingers still crossed for the boy.
Trish
Ana
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Sometimes it also counts how the diver approaches the situation.
Look at how many people keep talking during the boat briefing, I could possibly see fuzzing over the gear and still absorb the information given, but no way a person can get the info if they are talking. Even worse, they may even stop someone else to properly hear all the details of the brief in question.
So you are set for a dive you are not familiar doing, and there is Mr/Mrs Know-it-all with a running BS commentary and you missed a key part of the briefing. You don't tell this person to shut the hell up because you are there to have a great time, may even have butterflies in the stomach for the new type of dive, who knows why, I never know why people tolerate behaviors that directly affect them in order to avoid potential confrontation.
But anyway, you may not really know what/if you missed the part of "unless the roaring of the engine stopped...." or "make sure you hear DIVE DIVE DIVE 3 times..." or "if you don't feel like you are ready ready, let someone else...." or whatever the case may be for that particular op.
Don't write off drift dives completely. In spite of some of your initial impressions, drift dives can be such an easy going pleasure.
What you see as "Top Gun" attitude may very well be divers believing they are bigger and better than anyone else, seems like every boat hass to have a "special person". But it could also be regulars that: a- Know that the sooner they get off the boat the more space will be available for others not so familiar with the procedures. b- they have to pee and want to get in the water as soon as possible (happens to me a lot) c) is the way they've been diving, maybe were taught locally and drilled that you get your gear ready by the time you reach the inlet, and before reaching the actual drop site you are ready waiting to splash, as opposed to having the crew waiting for you.
As far as the equalization issue. That is a very valid point to take into account, typical assumptions from the captain is that divers will go down at a certain speed, not necessarily fast but without wasting time. If you take longer than most divers to get to the bottom then ask for an early drop to make up for the equalization time in your way down, I know that trying to rush your ears only makes it worse.
With fast currents, specially surface currents is such a hassle to dive off an anchored vessel, everything becomes a hand over hand maneuver, why would that be preferable over just dropping when you are over the spot (with proper lead in) get to the bottom and go with the flow until is time to come up. At that point just come up, no need to worry about being off your navigation and discovering the boat ways away and having to swim forever and a day, what if you have to go against the current? sounds like work. So much easier to just go up where you are, yes be cautious about boats that can run you over, and have either the flag you're towing or some marker but that is the only concern.
The burden on the being run over is another subject on its own. As far as getting chewed up by the propeller of your own boat, the odds are very small if you engage your brain even just a little. As a general rule, I'm not one to defend dive operators but these guys in South Florida have it down pretty well. The fact that you get an incident like this once a decade (maybe even less) is a very good record. Keep in mind that the great majority of the dives made in the area are drift dives.
RedCash02
Contributor
I'm rather ignorant of boating laws, so maybe someone can fill me in. Is there any requirement for a boat to have a mate on board in addition to the captain or DM? I know the bigger dive boats I've been on (12+ divers) have always had a mate that didn't get in the water. I remember the boats used by Florida Keys Dive Center are both pretty big.
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