Fatality off Pensacola - Read and learn

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

"If blowing off your stops is part of your training" No need to be rude here, getting personal and bullying me. I wanted to have an intelligent discussion in relation to a very sensitive subject. It is not about me or about you or the present case for instance, it is about a situation where you have one diver LOA and one diver OOA (like the 2 teens in California). The PADI rescue diver manual states as a procedure (p.154) for unresponsive diver that you ascend directly to the surface. Should it be the same for a responsive Diver? (PADI does not specifically address the case) In the PADI Divemaster Manual, there is a study case of a LOA Diver in which the Instructor has to force the diver to ascend (both ascend directly without a safety stop). There is, in a different thread, “Two fatalities at Harvard Mine, California” where one tech diver helps an OOA to the surface and get back for his deco. I do not tech dive and I manage my gas and depth very well, I stay within NDL dive rules, hence I know (this is my training) that if something goes wrong I can surface directly. Then you’ll tell me that I’m blowing off my stops???

I did not imply that the Donor did something wrong or right, he did what he believed was acceptable to him. I’m certainly not going to judge him; this is a terrible tragedy (still easily avoidable by basic air management from Diver). But I know that even if he did it right this man will have to live with this for the rest of his life. It does not matter if he is right; the psychological impact is there.

So you stated what you would do in a similar case. That’s OK, no sweat. But you can respect other’s positions too. I just happen to have live long enough to understand that my certainties have their own limits and that circumstances could change in a blink of an eye; I don’t know what I would do, will I support Diver or not? Will I go as far as Donor did? I don’t know, I have experienced it in the mountains, at sea but never underwater.

Can we agree that diving within safe NDL one could surface without a safety stop?

Patrice

I don't think James was being nasty with you, just speaking from experience.

As for your final statement, If a diver does 1 dive in a 24 hour period, has no known pre-disposers (is that a word?) to DCS and follows accepted tables then I can agree that the chance of taking a hit is very slim by surfacing without a stop. Other than that, it is unwise to ever dive without a stop, speaking in terms of normal recreational diving.

The topic you bring up is one a person can't answer to be respectful or disrespectful, and a person can't be on the fence trying not to hurt someones feelings. With this subject matter someone is always gonna get hurt a bit because families and friends read these threads. What matters is being honest and truthful about a subject and not trying to make everyone happy or mad. It is what it is. Families want to know the truth even if it hurts. There is no need to beat on the victim diver because he paid the ultimate price. Should we discuss what he did wrong if it is apparent? Indeed we should. Political correctness has no place in discussions like this. Manners and appropriate behavior do.

The diver who is the subject of this topic made a mistake that cost him his life. From what has been written he seems to have been a "type A" personality, as am I. I would almost bet he was also the type that would tell his friends this....."If I mess up and don't come back, make sure everyone learns from my mistakes so it doesn't happen to them"

To bring up a point concerning a single NDL dive is kinda out of the scope of this discussion as the victim diver was lobster hunting at over 100'. But since you did bring it up I answered it as have others. Again no flame intended.

 

[fdog]

Good day, Patrice. I'm sorry if I came across rudely and appeared to be attacking you.

"Blowing off stops" implies deliberately not doing a (safety stop) or (deco stop). This I pulled from:

<snip>
Again correct me if I’m wrong but my PADI Rescue Diver instructor, in the case of an OOA or unconscious diver or serious emergency, told me to surface AFAP (within safe ascent speed) certainly no safety stop.
<snip>

As you will recall, I referenced that if that's your training, then do it.

The problem in these after-incident discussions lies in the "referencing training manuals", "training guidelines", "SOP's", and the like. These turn into very black-and-white mandatory procedures, such as "certainly no safety stop". The real world is not black-and-white. You are balancing priorities on the fly, making it shades of gray, so to speak.

I was attempting to post a viewpoint differing from the rote PADI 60 fpm ascent without a safety stop. There are other ways to manage this emergency, which present less sequela, which would be my choice (given the dive profile of those involved).

I hope this clears things up a bit, and again, my apologies if you thought my post was bullying and attacking.


All the best, James

 

[616fun]

Having read several of James posts I can say I've never seen him speak rudely on this board. I'd day this is a misunderstanding.

 

[Jax]

"If blowing off your stops is part of your training" No need to be rude here, getting personal and bullying me. I wanted to have an intelligent discussion in relation to a very sensitive subject. It is not about me or about you or the present case for instance,
Patrice

"Lighten up, Francis!" You are making it personal, Patrice. I do not see James' statements as personal or bullying . . .

 

[Jax]

Can someone explain some of this to me?

I ascended and found him on his back, BC inflated, purple face, with his mask on. His face appeared swelled. I took off his mask and tried to wake him up; I manually added more air to his BC, and kept his head out of the water and yelled for the boat.

They threw anchor and came to our location as I finned pulling DIVER towards the boat. Two of our group jumped in and brought him to the boat, removed his dive gear, and then others lifted him into the boat. The Coast Guard (CG) was called and we started CPR. We gave coordinates and started heading back at full speed.

DIVER seemed semi responsive for about the first 20 minutes, slowly gasping for breath and occasionally slowly moving an arm; he did not blink and his pupils were dilated and eyes half shut. He remained purple with veins showing in his cheek and neck. His face was very swelled. I noted gurgling in his lungs as I gave breaths. We radioed the CG and asked for advice on water removal from his lungs. Only guidance received was to continue CPR. We periodically turned him on his side and hit his back in effort to dislodge any water, then immediately back to CPR. At one point we ran the boat so fast the engine cut out in our effort to get to shore as fast as possible.

Swelling and discoloration don't ring any bells with me . . . what could this be? Pulmonary Immersion Edema? (shades of DeniseGG)?

 

[ReefhuggerJP]

I would just like to add, I'm really not trying to be rude, but that PADI does say that dives over 100' or any dive that comes within 3 pressure groups of an NDL require a safety stop. If their max depth was 102', then the donor was acting responsible for himself, and making sure he got his required safety stop.

 

[rigdiver]

If the lungs were full of salt water(highly probable,) then there is a fluid shift to them. Osmosis, the body's water is trying to dilute the salt(solute) content. The heart can not then push blood flow through the lungs and it backs up causing Jugular Vein Distention. The veins in the neck stand out and is a clear sign.
Gurgulling was probably from the fluid between the alveoli and capillary beds.

 

[Scott L]

Having read several of James posts I can say I've never seen him speak rudely on this board. I'd day this is a misunderstanding.

James is probaly the most respectful poster on any scuba forum. Extremely knowledgable as well...

 

[klausi]

"If blowing off your stops is part of your training" No need to be rude here, getting personal and bullying me. I wanted to have an intelligent discussion in relation to a very sensitive subject. It is not about me or about you or the present case for instance, it is about a situation where you have one diver LOA and one diver OOA (like the 2 teens in California). The PADI rescue diver manual states as a procedure (p.154) for unresponsive diver that you ascend directly to the surface. Should it be the same for a responsive Diver? (PADI does not specifically address the case) In the PADI Divemaster Manual, there is a study case of a LOA Diver in which the Instructor has to force the diver to ascend (both ascend directly without a safety stop). There is, in a different thread, &#8220;Two fatalities at Harvard Mine, California&#8221; where one tech diver helps an OOA to the surface and get back for his deco. I do not tech dive and I manage my gas and depth very well, I stay within NDL dive rules, hence I know (this is my training) that if something goes wrong I can surface directly. Then you&#8217;ll tell me that I&#8217;m blowing off my stops???

I did not imply that the Donor did something wrong or right, he did what he believed was acceptable to him. I&#8217;m certainly not going to judge him; this is a terrible tragedy (still easily avoidable by basic air management from Diver). But I know that even if he did it right this man will have to live with this for the rest of his life. It does not matter if he is right; the psychological impact is there.

So you stated what you would do in a similar case. That&#8217;s OK, no sweat. But you can respect other&#8217;s positions too. I just happen to have live long enough to understand that my certainties have their own limits and that circumstances could change in a blink of an eye; I don&#8217;t know what I would do, will I support Diver or not? Will I go as far as Donor did? I don&#8217;t know, I have experienced it in the mountains, at sea but never underwater.

Can we agree that diving within safe NDL one could surface without a safety stop?

Patrice

Yes, I agree that surfacing without a safety stop is ok under such circumstances. It's unlikely to get anyone bent, and in any case getting bent is better than drowning. This was an ascent from pretty deep, and I am sure the involved divers were quite freaked out at this point and it was hard to think everything trough calmly, so I'm not claiming they acted irresponsibly by following their computer. Always sad to read such reports.

I am not sure if I understand the report correctly - "I assumed he was with the group"- the Diver was in fact a group member?

 

[Farback]

I would just like to add, I'm really not trying to be rude, but that PADI does say that dives over 100' or any dive that comes within 3 pressure groups of an NDL require a safety stop. If their max depth was 102', then the donor was acting responsible for himself, and making sure he got his required safety stop.

You know, just because Padi says this or that doesn't make it a law of nature. Tables, practices and ideas change over time. I've just gone through a CPR recert where the methodology has changed for easily the tenth time since I first learned it over thirty years ago.

Back when giant lizards walked the earth, the way I was taught, only people who had decompression obligations did any stops at all, and literally thousands of us survived. A three minute safety stop was introduced as a precaution, not a 'you'll die if you don't do this' thing. In an emergency situation, I believe, and practice, skipping the stop. If you're diving within your NDL limits, and it's hard to exceed them on an AL80, there should be no hesitation in skipping the stop if you're helping someone in any degree of difficulty. That's my opinion.