Fatality in the Vandenberg Wreck, Key West Florida

[drrich2]

If a person is behaving in an obviously impaired way, I can see the logic in risking one's well-being to 'save' him. I'm not willing to endorse it being obligatory, but it is 'noble.'

But barring such evidence, trying to bodily haul someone up by force after they've indicated 'No thanks, go away' or similar sentiments, could be taken by some people as assault and highly offensive.

It's been a few years, but we had a thread on the forum talking about the issue of seasoned cave divers who see people unequipped for cave diving going into one (non-cave certified fools was the presumption) hauling them up by force if they wouldn't abort, and one of our members (haven't seen his posts in awhile; hope he didn't get banned, he was entertaining) indicated if someone tried that with him, he might pull his 'pig-sticker.' I think that member has enough sense not to get into the situation in the first place, but the point is, some people take great umbrage at being manhandled.

Richard.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I thought I was pretty clear about best effort. Didn’t say anything about being a hero. And yeah, it might be a hard call, especially in the water where everything is time limited.

 

[Bob DBF]

You're advocating a wrestling match, inside a wreck, in 110 feet of water, with an instabuddy you've known for less than a couple of hours. Do I have that right?

No, he was advocating grabbing a tank valve and may be pulling the diver up to where his head would clear. If the guy was narked, he wouldn't figure out what was going on for a good 30', and then possibly be thinking about retribution or just a simple thank you.

It's not an unknown rescue move, more prevalent before mixed gas.

The deceased diver abandoned the surviving buddy. When that happens, there is no point in the buddy system, it's completely broken down and it's every diver for himself.

I have no issue with the surviving divers course of action, a diver does what he can, and I have no idea of his training or experience.

I would be more persistent in changing my buddys mind, because of my/our dive plan which outlined we would dive togather, and my experience diving. Each diver has to decide how much they are willing to do for their buddy, I just need to pass on what others have done for me.



Bob

 

[Steve_C]

Buddy was not floating there saying no I am not coming. Knock some sense into me,

Buddy took off and went deeper into the wreck. This requires going deeper, and maybe catching up, and then exerting great effort to get his attention, Drag him up at depth when you are already at the go up point. Sounds like a recipie for two deaths.

 

[Hatul]

Assuming you and the buddy are certified diving adults and you are not in a student/teacher relationship, I imagine the thing to do is respect the autonomy and responsibility for himself of a fellow adult and head up without him.

Richard.

That would be true if you are sure the buddy is thinking clearly and not in distress. If there is good chance of narcosis, as in this case, the autonomy argument falls apart and you do have a responsibility to get your buddy up as long as you're not endangering yourself.

 

[uncfnp]

It’s all a judgement call and the answer to the buddy question will be specific to each incident based on conditions, equipment, diver experience and skills. And the divers personal perceptions of risk and possibly his ability to make quick decision under stress.

It’s a good hypothetical exercise “what would you do” but there is no way to make a call in this specific case. Not enough facts and never could be since there are only two that has any idea what happened and even if the “buddy” contributes ... well we all know that any of us would try to justify our actions.

 

[The Chairman]

Probably because Nitrox courses specifically highlight one of the benefits of Nitrox as reducing narcosis.

They are wrong to do this. I've taught all sorts of NitrOx courses and specifically go out of my way to debunk this myth.

In diving, your first responsibility is to yourself. Don't become the first or the second victim. Remember the rule of fun: You can call a dive at anytime for any reason, with no repercussions and no questions asked. If I thumb a dive I expect you to follow me. If you thumb a dive you can expect me to follow you. Of course, we might make arrangements before hand to bypass this, and that's OK. I've had plenty of SOBs (Same Ocean Buddies), but we agree on that before we splash.

Touching or grabbing anyone without their permission is a criminal act. So, if the buddy signals you back that they are staying, then grabbing their tank, any part of them or their gear is simple assault. If, and only if your buddy fails to respond to your signal do you have their implied permission to save them. Reread that until you understand it.

If I give you the thumb,
Do not linger!
Ere I swim away,
And give you the finger!

 

[martincohn]

Divers are expected to make a best effort

Exactly! I will make a best effort right up to that point that I might put myself in jeopardy.

Well maybe a little past that point depending on who it is. Honestly if it was your kid or significant other you might go past that safe point.

 

[Slate]

Honestly if it was your kid or significant other you might go past that safe point.

Ya think?

 

[BlueTrin]

I have been in a Wreck class where the instructor decided to let us do a limited penetration.

I think my insta buddy was either stressed or narced and did things that could have been really dangerous. After a few seconds, he was already gone without paying attention to me or the instructor. Ultimately the instructor went by another path and got him out of the wreck.

It is easy to say that you have a duty to get your buddy out. But you only need to hesitate for a few seconds for your buddy to go in a place where it would be dangerous for you to follow him.

It’s not like it’s easy to grab someone when inside a narrow space.