GIORia ... I was thinking ... you shouldn't have to be so determined to learn dive, to learn to dive
... but it's good that that you are
... but it's good that that you are
Fail! Weekend Certify-
- Thread starter GI0Ria
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Kay I am going to go out on a limb here:
I have read every post (dont remember them all but read them nonetheless)
MY TAKE on what happened:
G: you were identified as a "____" diver from earlier in the training by the instructors you and your son were with. You can fill in the blank with whatever disparaging or derogative term you think would fit crossword-wise. It is unfortunate, but that is what happened.
I mentioned back at the beginning that there is NO benefit to rushing you, that I do not rush my students where at all possible. I think we can all agree that if your memory on the dive was "hurry hurry hurry, kick kick kick..." then your instructor or DM (who got stuck with the "____" lady) needs to rethink his motivational speech. For you to remember it like that, HE had become a major and IMHO inappropriate source of stress. Sure you probably were lagging, dogging, or whatever else.... that does not change the fact that you are paying them for a recreational activity and certification program. Had they exercised MORE tolerance you would have remarked on how it was a damn long swim, tiring, seemed forever, but we made it and then went diving.... Your instructor should not have been the pivotal or key part of that memory.
Now when dealing with problem students (and for this diatribe, can we just accept for a second that you were in-fact identified, labelled and acting like what we as instructors have come to call a "problem" for lack of better or more specific terminology??) I know that whatever I am going to say or do WILL come under more vigorous scrutiny, and as such I make DAMNED sure that I do not give them ANY excess ammunition for my incumbent lynching. That would definitely include telling them "I am going to drop down below the surface by 10' to watch your finning technique, I will be right back." At that point, I have escaped the battery of the surface conditions, escaped having interact excessively with someone I have identified as being grief, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the diver is not FEELING left behind, nor is she able to say that I have left her, especially if I get confirmation before doing it.
I am not going to go any further on the OW... that above is enough. The shop had now made a bad situation (problem student) MUCH worse (pissed off problem student). Once you get anyone's pissedoff button pushed, it is hard to un-push it and that is what would have had to have happened in order to complete the certification process.
GI0Ria I will be completely frank here: YOU were not the ideal student. I can read that from what you have said and how you have said it. THAT'S FINE. It does not make you a bad person, just someone that needs to be dealt with differently from the 80% majority of students who waltz through. You are not alone; there are many people far worse than you from an instructor's perspective. Please just accept that as it is- an observation.
So now we have established that you are not the ideal, and they absolutely suck at dealing with some of the students who require a more refined or tailored approach. In order for you to continue with your course, you need to contact them ONE more time. I suggest you send them a letter, possibly registered. For the 5-10$ of old fashioned mail with confirmation of delivery, YOU can take the time to craft and phrase your message to them VERY carefully, have a friend proof read it, and assure yourself that they receive it.
In your letter you need to tell them:
- you do not wish to continue yours or your son's instruction with them
- you require copies of all training records
- you require a properly completed OW Referral form for each of you;
You may feel the need to embellish or expound on certain details or issues.... do yourself a favor and stifle the urge!
At this point they are holding records that have value to you, and the only other way for those to come into your possession is for you to drive all the way out to them, again, and likely get into another argument or debate which will: A) not end well for you; and b) not alter their perspective on the world one IOTA. Anything you tell them now will be completely discounted as "disgruntled customer" rantings. Since one of your instructors is the owner, you have already exhausted the only option or route of escalating your complaint. You have done your duty by getting the word out on SB. There is nothing more you can accomplish there EXCEPT get yours and your son's records so you can go elsewhere.
I think that if you keep the tone of your note completely flat and the details completely succinct, you will have no trouble getting the papers you need.
Now you need to take that referral to someone else. there have been other shops names given, and the other thing you can try is seeing if SSI has a directory or other member listing service. Perhaps you can look at going somewhere warm, or more appropriately, just somewhere more sheltered. Take a tent and make it a camping road trip. Have some fun with it.
You will need to understand upfront that the dives WILL cost more money. To put it in perspective, when I was selling checkout dives in the Caribbean, we charged 65$ each dive. That represented a 20$ surcharge over the regular price of a dive for the (typically but not guaranteed) undivided attention of a qualified instructor. That 20$ surcharge (per dive) is the price you now get to pay in order to free yourself of the established incompatibilities between you and 'your' shop.
I have always felt that new students do benefit from MORE time under the watchful eye of an instructor than the bare minimum. So chalk the CRAP in the past up as experience, let your fingers do the walking and time to get on with the business of communing with the fish
I have read every post (dont remember them all but read them nonetheless)
MY TAKE on what happened:
G: you were identified as a "____" diver from earlier in the training by the instructors you and your son were with. You can fill in the blank with whatever disparaging or derogative term you think would fit crossword-wise. It is unfortunate, but that is what happened.
I mentioned back at the beginning that there is NO benefit to rushing you, that I do not rush my students where at all possible. I think we can all agree that if your memory on the dive was "hurry hurry hurry, kick kick kick..." then your instructor or DM (who got stuck with the "____" lady) needs to rethink his motivational speech. For you to remember it like that, HE had become a major and IMHO inappropriate source of stress. Sure you probably were lagging, dogging, or whatever else.... that does not change the fact that you are paying them for a recreational activity and certification program. Had they exercised MORE tolerance you would have remarked on how it was a damn long swim, tiring, seemed forever, but we made it and then went diving.... Your instructor should not have been the pivotal or key part of that memory.
Now when dealing with problem students (and for this diatribe, can we just accept for a second that you were in-fact identified, labelled and acting like what we as instructors have come to call a "problem" for lack of better or more specific terminology??) I know that whatever I am going to say or do WILL come under more vigorous scrutiny, and as such I make DAMNED sure that I do not give them ANY excess ammunition for my incumbent lynching. That would definitely include telling them "I am going to drop down below the surface by 10' to watch your finning technique, I will be right back." At that point, I have escaped the battery of the surface conditions, escaped having interact excessively with someone I have identified as being grief, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the diver is not FEELING left behind, nor is she able to say that I have left her, especially if I get confirmation before doing it.
I am not going to go any further on the OW... that above is enough. The shop had now made a bad situation (problem student) MUCH worse (pissed off problem student). Once you get anyone's pissedoff button pushed, it is hard to un-push it and that is what would have had to have happened in order to complete the certification process.
GI0Ria I will be completely frank here: YOU were not the ideal student. I can read that from what you have said and how you have said it. THAT'S FINE. It does not make you a bad person, just someone that needs to be dealt with differently from the 80% majority of students who waltz through. You are not alone; there are many people far worse than you from an instructor's perspective. Please just accept that as it is- an observation.
So now we have established that you are not the ideal, and they absolutely suck at dealing with some of the students who require a more refined or tailored approach. In order for you to continue with your course, you need to contact them ONE more time. I suggest you send them a letter, possibly registered. For the 5-10$ of old fashioned mail with confirmation of delivery, YOU can take the time to craft and phrase your message to them VERY carefully, have a friend proof read it, and assure yourself that they receive it.
In your letter you need to tell them:
- you do not wish to continue yours or your son's instruction with them
- you require copies of all training records
- you require a properly completed OW Referral form for each of you;
You may feel the need to embellish or expound on certain details or issues.... do yourself a favor and stifle the urge!
At this point they are holding records that have value to you, and the only other way for those to come into your possession is for you to drive all the way out to them, again, and likely get into another argument or debate which will: A) not end well for you; and b) not alter their perspective on the world one IOTA. Anything you tell them now will be completely discounted as "disgruntled customer" rantings. Since one of your instructors is the owner, you have already exhausted the only option or route of escalating your complaint. You have done your duty by getting the word out on SB. There is nothing more you can accomplish there EXCEPT get yours and your son's records so you can go elsewhere.
I think that if you keep the tone of your note completely flat and the details completely succinct, you will have no trouble getting the papers you need.
Now you need to take that referral to someone else. there have been other shops names given, and the other thing you can try is seeing if SSI has a directory or other member listing service. Perhaps you can look at going somewhere warm, or more appropriately, just somewhere more sheltered. Take a tent and make it a camping road trip. Have some fun with it.
You will need to understand upfront that the dives WILL cost more money. To put it in perspective, when I was selling checkout dives in the Caribbean, we charged 65$ each dive. That represented a 20$ surcharge over the regular price of a dive for the (typically but not guaranteed) undivided attention of a qualified instructor. That 20$ surcharge (per dive) is the price you now get to pay in order to free yourself of the established incompatibilities between you and 'your' shop.
I have always felt that new students do benefit from MORE time under the watchful eye of an instructor than the bare minimum. So chalk the CRAP in the past up as experience, let your fingers do the walking and time to get on with the business of communing with the fish
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sounds like the voice of reason there
Yeah. That's how it registered on me too.
There's always two sides to this issue, though. It's a dynamic between instructor and student and even though the student may be more demanding or in need of the instructor's attention or guidance, the instructor shouldn't be automatcially exonerated either.
Whenever I get a "_____" student I take them aside at some point and have a real heart to heart with them and get expectations on both sides out in the open. Clearly that didn't happen here. Obviously both parties could have taken the initiative but my expectation of the instructor would have been for them to take the lead because the instructor is in the position of authority/leadership and we see this happening on a fairly regular basis and should be in a good position to recognise it.
Unfortunately sometimes the student and the instructor both lack what it takes to get the issues out in the open so they can be resolved and once the "avoid the issues" dance starts in ernest it can escalate. The instructor, not knowing what to do with her, may have written G off at some point and clearly she has written him off too.
It's seldom one thing.
R..
Not meaning to stir the pot, but has the Dive Shop been apprised of this thread & given their side of the story yet?
I
idocsteve
Guest
How can a dive shop arbitrarily bypass the rules and regulations for the Scuba certification agency under which they are licensed and basically tell a diver "Other dive shops will certify you in a lake and that certification is good in the ocean but we don't do it that way and if we give you a checkout in a lake that's the only place you can dive".
I mean, is it going to say on her card "Lake Certified Diver"?
I don't believe the dive shop has been named anywhere.
I agree with tregrr's excellent post.
I agree with tregrr's excellent post.
fnfalman
Contributor
Lake Diving Specialty soon to be a PADI specialty course?
Anyway, good luck with GIORIA's quest for finishing out the OW check dives. Do whatever you need to do and then go have fun on your own and learn from other experienced divers in your area and maybe get your advance trainings from other shops.
sorry to burst that bubble, but unless you get a Referral Form signed off, there is not going to be any C-card forthcoming from any agency-- Not without starting from scratch or going back to your favorite shop.
I am with a different agency, but I can say that, As Far As I Know, it is contrary to the policies of most all training agencies to issue certifications from on high. It would be negligent of any instructor (either working in another shop or working for the agency proper) to issue a certification associated with their instructor number without first having been in the water with that diver.
Nope; I can say with certainty after having read every post last night that the shop HAS NOT been identified. I think that is likely for the best at this point since this thread has garnered huge attention and until the OP and her son get certified, the only thing that will come about from outing the shop is further friction in obtaining those forms. You never know how petty someone, with the audacity to tell an uncertified diver they have to get their cert there or it will not be valid elsewhere, might actually become. In the end though, I still think this thread may be too much negativity for that shop based on what has basically amounted to an incompatibility of teaching and learning styles.
IMHO and non legal opinion too I might add, from reading the lines and between them, I doubt that standards were LEGALLY violated. It is my understanding that the instructor or DM was watching them from below. This does not say that they weren't ETHICALLY violated; I would hate to be the OW student swimming through the chuck and FEEL like I am alone. THAT is the unfortunate circumstance that in my mind violated the unwritten trust agreement between the student and instructor.
Perhaps the OP would be willing to take the high road and keep the shop's name to herself. If someone searches GOOGLE, with similar issues, this thread will come up in perpetuity. She may be willing or able to speak with and assist those other individuals who might have similar grief in that area, but in PM.
-just my Canadian 14.7 psi (1 bar)
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Lake Diving Specialty soon to be a PADI specialty course?
ummm wouldn't help GIORIA one bit... if according to the shop owner her lake certification was so limited... she would need a OCEAN diver specialty
ps GIORIA this is mockery of the shop owner's lie... no worries about getting certified in one place and not counting elsewhere. Certification is certification, geographically speaking.
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