Exploding scuba tank kills one - Florida

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It's good for all who think it is ok to overfill that there will probably not be anyway of telling if this was the cause. In fact it's my belief that even if it were there are some who would continue it's practice. Merely side stepping my point by pointing out the risk to Cave divers being low on the risk list is comic at best. You want more gas get a bigger tank or higher PSI tank. Configure your gear to work with it. Use all those math skills to figure out how to stay safe instead of how to be-unsafe.

Just to be perfectly clear, I am not trying to say that it is or is not safe to fill low pressure steel tanks, those that have a service pressure of 2400psi (not the older, thinner walled steel 72's with a service pressure of 2250 psi), to a pressure over 3000 psi.

What I AM trying to say, is that it is illogical to, after any scuba tank explodes, assume that filling those aforementioned steel tanks to those aforementioned higher pressures, poses an elevated danger to divers.

What if the tank that exploded was aluminum? Then, your entire argument about overfilling steel tanks is entirely worthless. If every single aluminum 80 in the world exploded today, you would still have no grounds to state that steel tanks are dangerous.

What if the tank that exploded was steel? Then, perhaps you start to have a point. However, we'd have to look at the condition of the tank. A tank can be dangerous at pressures below service pressures if it is damaged in some way.

What if the tank was steel, but filled to the service pressure, and with the proper burst disk? I'd tend to think your argument carries no weight at that point as well.


There is no reason to avoid every thing that has hurt someone in the past, however. Life always has risk. How should we avoid that risk? We could all just stay home and never participate in any events, because a lot of people die while doing things like sports, or driving. But, I know research has shown that a surprising amount of deaths happen in or near the home. So, even staying home, sitting in a chair not moving all day, could be fatal. Eating can be fatal, not eating can be fatal. Just by sitting in one spot, you can get bed sores, which when infected, can kill you. But, by moving around, you do run the risk of falling and hitting your head, killing you.

This is why scuba divers engage in accident analysis. In reality, everyone does this. We observe that lighting yourself on fire tends to be harmful, so we avoid it. We observe that driving the wrong way down the road can be bad, so we avoid it. But, we observe that driving while following the law can sometimes be fatal, but there are huge benefits to driving, so we drive. We install airbags, and wear seatbelts, but we don't wear fire suits or helmets.

Cave divers have observed that diving without training tends to kill a lot of people, so we avoid it. We observe that breaking thirds kills a lot of people, so we avoid it. We observe that not running guidelines leads to fatalities, so we avoid that. However, how many cave divers have been killed by an overfilled steel tank? It might be one or two, maybe 5. However, that pales in comparison with other things that kill cave divers.

In fact, this is another interesting argument I hear a lot: diving thirds at Peacock is dangerous, because it's a low flow/no flow cave. That argument makes a ton of mathematical sense. It's really impossible to refute unless you can prove that your SAC rate improves when you are under stress. However, how many deaths does this lead to? Because thirds is technically insane at Peacock, I might turn early. However, I don't turn at 6ths like some divers do, because I recognize that in practice, diving thirds seems to not kill too many people at Peacock.

In the same way, I recognize that it seems insane to overfill steel tanks. However, even technically speaking, we know that steel tanks are, by virtue of their steel, able to handle expansion better. We also have the benefit of seeing steel tanks built to the same 3AA standard that are still working fine from quite a long time ago, much longer than aluminum tanks.

So, while I agree that you do have a point: overfilling steel tanks is not any safer than filling them to the service pressure, and has the potential to be less safe, I look at the data and do not see that many tank failures due to overfilled steel tanks. So, I don't think it's fair to consider overfilling steel tanks to be as dangerous as breaking thirds. If you want to save lives, focus on the things that historically have been shown to kill the most people.

Is that a fair look at the issue? We both agree: overfilling steel tanks can be catastrophic.

I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on the "exemption" tanks, which have faced problems with expansion and required changing the testing rules to allow them to pass hydro. Hearing that a lot of modern HP tanks have failed their first hydro without ever being overfilled has to make you feel safe using those at their rated fill pressure, compared to 3aa tanks overfilled by 50% passing their third or fourth hydroes, eh? :)

But hey, like I said, I really think that the talk of overfilling steel tanks is incredibly off topic, unless the tank in question was steel and overfilled. And, I really do want to know what caused this as I don't think anyone should die due to tank failure. It should be easy to avoid. I hope we all benefit from the knowledge brought to the surface from this accident, and can prevent it from happening again. If it was an overfilled steel tank, and if it can be shown that overfilled steel tanks are a risk, maybe steps can be taken to reduce or eliminate that risk.
 
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0712815

Page 20 shows the rupture pressure of the three steel tanks that the Navy tested while testing their aluminum tanks. Two ruptured at 5300, one at 5400. That's too close to 4000 for me. Based on this document I would think it safer to pump a aluminum to 5000 than a steel to 4000. The pictures look like the tank ruptured instead of fragmenting.
Okay, but you need to be aware that the aluminum tanks in this 1970 U.S. Navy report are not the same ones you think about today. These were a special tank made only for the U.S. Navy, with an old technology with a 3/4 inch opening at the top and a plug in the rounded bottom (look at the report and see). These are the tanks this report was talking about (aluminum):
USSDiverswaiting.jpg

USS--DeepDivesurfacing.jpg

These tanks are no longer in the inventory. They went out when US Divers Company came up with their newer aluminum tanks. I used them in the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers in 1967. They were in the inventory until probably the mid-1970s. They had a 15 year lifetime (as I recall), and could not be hydrostatically tested.

The steel tanks in this report were truly "low pressure" as they were the "steel 72" rated at 2250 psig (2475 psig at 10% overfill with the "+" sign, and at this pressure they were 71.2 cubic feet). This is what they looked like:
NavyDiversinhatch.jpg


In short, you are comparing apples to oranges if you try to use this report to discuss today's steel and aluminum tanks.

Realize that during that time the U.S. Navy was involved in the Vietnam War, and they were doing all sorts of things to try to keep their SEAL teams going. Probably the same is true today. The probable purpose of this report was to see what would happen for SEALs and UDT who were in combat ops, and who's lives may have depended on that overfill. This is a long ways from cave diving for fun.

SeaRat
 
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I'm going to have to call nonsense on this one, unless he had a large cylinder for filling. Far too much damage to be caused by the typical sized dive cylinder. Here's a link to some video of the residence post-"explosion"

CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News

Any data to back that up? Were you there? Have you seen the tank in question? Have you done studies involving the explosion of large numbers of tanks and quantifying the damage under various conditions?
 
In light of this accident, I have to admit I am seeing my LP95 doubles in a different light. They're freshly hydroed and vis'ed, but they are also permanent residents of the living room area in my 2 BR apartment. I find them decorative and have no other place to put them than my apartment. I keep them fully pressurized. Am I being stupid?
 
JahJahwarrior,

Please remember that the types of overfill that you are describing, while not leading to deaths that we know of for divers, are a violation of DOT rules. If these are used in interstate commerce, and there is an accident involving an explosion where it was determined that the tanks had been abused with overfills and they were equipped with "double burst discs," there could be considerable fines associated with it from DOT.

Personally, I don't endorse overfilling. These rules were set for a purpose, and I stick to that. The Europeans have a different system, but this is ours. I have several sets of LP steel cylinders which are 1800 psi, and they have a 2250 burst disc because there is no other alternative. But I caution the dive shop not to overfill them too.

On a slightly different topic, I have taken my AL-80, 3000 psig tanks out of service.

SeaRat
 
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I didn't see anyone mention the air temperature at the time. If you fill the cylinder at the typical 70f rating and overfill it 25% for your cave fill, then the temp goes up to 95f, you now have almost a 40% overfill. If the burst discs are modified, you could easily blow the cylinder. A friend of mine left his doubles in the back of his pick-up truck in direct sunlight while he was working in a hot location. Both of his burst discs blew, and they were overpressure burst discs as well.
Usually, the person who is going to die from an overfill on a modified or unsafe cylinder is the poor guy who is filling it. Most of them won't touch an excessive overfill.

Little correction (don't forget to use Ks not Fs when doing the calculations... and don't use Rankines that's retarded...)

pV = nrT

V, n, r are constants.

P1 * V = nr T1
P2 * V = nr T2

T1 = 70 F = 294 K
T2 = 95 F = 308 K

P1 = 1.25
P2 = x

1.25 * V = nr * 294 => 1.25 / 294 = nr/V
x * V = nr * 308 => x / 308 = nr / V

x/308 = 1.25 / 294
x = 308 * 1.25 / 294
x = 1.31

So if the tank had a 25% over fill, that overfill is now 31%. In this case a 35% increase in farenheits only brings a 5% pressure increase in term of pressure.
 
Oxygen is no more or less explosive when a tank ruptures than any other gas. Chemical explosions involving oxygen bottles can occur when combustible oil or grease contaminate a cylinder, but that would have happened during the fill process, not during transport.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/365310-o2-tank-explosion.html I'm giving O2 bottles a lot more respect.
For those of you who think oxygen cylinders cannot explode, please read the thread that DandyDon quoted. After this thread and please watch the youtube video below:

Oxygen Cylinder Explosion

This is not to say that this is what happened with this particular accident; I don't think we have enough information to make that judgment yet.

SeaRat
 
In light of this accident, I have to admit I am seeing my LP95 doubles in a different light. They're freshly hydroed and vis'ed, but they are also permanent residents of the living room area in my 2 BR apartment. I find them decorative and have no other place to put them than my apartment. I keep them fully pressurized. Am I being stupid?
Yes, you need to send them to me immediately where I will store them far away from you and your living space.
This is the only sure way to eliminate this hazard from your home. :wink:
Anyone else with tank bombs they fear can contact me for where to send them.:D
 
If it makes all those who don't believe that subtle overfills are safe.
If it is found to have been the absolute undeniable cause of this accident.
(the overfilling of an undamaged LP tank)

I vow to from this day forward to limit any slight overfills to a more reasonable
pressure than in the past. Therefore I will not fill my tanks over a maximum of say 4000psi.

Hopefully, knowing this will allow these people who don't believe that overfills are safe/sane
to sleep better at night, just knowing that my regs seats will never see 4400-4500psi should
make them happy that I will have swayed into their way of thinking
and started to drink their purple drink.

********************************************************************
My tanks flew through their last hydro test.
It is said that properly maintained 3AA steel tanks
will last in service for 40-50 years.

If I pump mine up a tad and they only last 10-15 years,
I feel that I will have gotten my money's worth from them.
At that point in my life I will likely change over
to RB to get the weight off my old back.

I believe that too much gas is always the correct amount.
Does anyone remember reading about that terrible diving accident?
The one where the dive team didn't run out of gas
because they had plenty in reserves?
Oops, I'm sorry,those divers lived and dove another day.

Donning Kevlar Suit.:coffee:

RIP RV
 
AL 100's are full @ 3300 PSI.....it's NOT an overfill.
Oh, gosh! How could I forget those? Yes, well, if the tank's rated at 3300, why I'd be ok & not get nervous 'till at least 3600. But for regular old 80's with the 3000 psi working pressure, 3300's my "nervous number."
:)
Rick
 
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