Equip. redundancy

[sunkmail]

Something that is somewhat missed in some of the responses - It is VERy dependant on your site and type of diving.

At my local sites we always have lights - even at noon on the brightest day of the year. Usually you can't see much detail on anything below 15' or so, and I've been on day dives as dark as night.

The idea that you don't need one, or if you take it, it's only to look in nooks and such is a nice, clear, warm water concept, often taken for granted by people living in those environments.

Continuing on the light theme, I have 2 back-ups to my primary. Why? Well, I have them for my tech, night, whatever needs, so why not take them - the weight on land is minimal, and they are 100% out of the way when diving.

Have I ever needed all 3? No. I have, however, used 2. Strangely enough, not for myself, but I've had 2 buddies that have had their light fail in the middle of a dive, without a back-up (on day dives). I loan them one of mine, and we're still good to go, with another spare, just in case.

With all that said, I do agree with the general concensus of the other replies - yes you can have too much, and often people do. Just remember to evaluate it to your local conditions.

(ie, I'm heading on a primarily non-diving vacation to Mexico soon and will be taking only my 2 back-up lights. They're more than enough for the 2 dives I hope to get in, take easy to find AA batteries, and give me piece of mind in an unfamiliar location.)

 

[DevonDiver]

Something that is somewhat missed in some of the responses - It is VERy dependant on your site and type of diving.

Why? We're talking about redundancy here... not the need for kit itself, but what you need back-up for.

Tech is a different issue.... and given the forum that this thread is located in... has no bearing on the discussion.

At my local sites we always have lights - even at noon on the brightest day of the year. Usually you can't see much detail on anything below 15' or so, and I've been on day dives as dark as night.

In which case, you treat it as a night dive. If you can't see on the dive with you naked eye, you need a torch and one back-up.

The back-up is needed if the failure of your primary torch would cause danger and/or force an immediate abort to the dive.

The idea that you don't need one, or if you take it, it's only to look in nooks and such is a nice, clear, warm water concept, often taken for granted by people living in those environments.

I don't think anyone said you'd only take a torch for those circumstances - merely that you could.

Continuing on the light theme, I have 2 back-ups to my primary. Why? Well, I have them for my tech, night, whatever needs, so why not take them - the weight on land is minimal, and they are 100% out of the way when diving.

I've got lots of stuff... cylinders, drysuits, wetsuits, umbilical torches, hammers, screwdrivers, DVD players, frying pans, tuxedos, oil paintings, laptops, hiking boots.....

I've got them... should I take them diving?

Or, should I make an intelligent decision about what I need?

Have I ever needed all 3? No.

...there's a clue here... if you look really hard...

I have, however, used 2. Strangely enough, not for myself, but I've had 2 buddies

.

That's not redundancy. That's carrying a surplus of kit so that you can baby-sit for your ill-equipped diving companions. I won't call them 'buddies' because I believe the word 'buddy' should have an implication that you were all diving with sufficient equipment and training.

With all that said, I do agree with the general concensus of the other replies - yes you can have too much, and often people do. Just remember to evaluate it to your local conditions.

The same 'rules' of redundancy apply, regardless of condition/location.

1) Do you need it? Yes/No. If yes, carry a primary.
2) Is it likely to fail? Yes/No If yes, go to question 3.
3) Is redundancy provided by the team/buddy? Yes/No If no, continue to question 4.
4) Does the loss of it cause danger/dive abort? Yes/No If yes, carry a secondary.

 

[sunkmail]

...there's a clue here... if you look really hard...

No need to get sarcastic. I know this is an internet forum, but still, can't we at least try to keep it civil?

I'm not going to reply to your earlier quips, as they have added nothing to the conversation, as you have stated your view already. Just because mine is different, doesn't make it wrong.

That's not redundancy. That's carrying a surplus of kit so that you can baby-sit for your ill-equipped diving companions. I won't call them 'buddies' because I believe the word 'buddy' should have an implication that you were all diving with sufficient equipment and training.

Umm, now, using YOUR suggestion of not NEEDING a light on a day dive. (Blanket statement), they were not ill-equipped. We could have easily continued the dive safely without passing over one of my lights, but it allowed my buddy to enjoy the dive a lot more.

And the word buddy in these instances also includes the fact that they are my friends outside of diving as well. Both of whom have had nearly the same training as you, from what I can see in your profile - not counting the tech stuff, which you so nicely said doesn't count in this forum. So is the training lacking? Were they in danger?

It could also have been me with the failed primary - If it were, I wouldn't thumb the dive if I didn't have a redundant light remaining, but I may alter my dive to stay closer to the shore/surface/boat, just in case.

What do you do with a newer diver that doesn't know what they need yet? I am happy to dive with newbies, but would rather not have to call dives short because of them. It's one reason why I carry a toolkit with me diving - it's not just for me.

Continuing this EXAMPLE

The 3rd light hasn't been used. but had I had only the 1 back-up, I may have cut dives short.

Like most things in diving -> Do a cost/beneifit on the item.

Simplified example - 2nd back-up Light:

Cost: Beneifit: Neutral:
extra weight not having to call a dive Out of the way (no hinderance)

Since the extra weight is not noticed underwater, the beneifit wins out.

You may find a use for yout DVD player while diving, and if you do, then by all means, take it with you

My main point remains the same to the OP - Evaluate what YOU need.

If some random person on the internet, or your LDS says you Do or Do Not need something, ask questions as to the reason. Be them in your own mind, trusted sources, or even the random internet person themselves - then follow your OW training - Stop, Think, Act.

Personal thought - there are few things in the world that should be done a particular way without understanding. 'Because I said so' is not a valid argument, neither is 'Because we've always done it this way.' This isn 't aimed at this thread, but life in general.

Andy - Please don't take anything I've said as a personal attack - I've tried to make it as neutral as I could, while addressing your particular comments. I'm pretty sure if we were to meet in person, it would turn out we have similar thoughts on all the issues, just slightly skewed from out experiences in our typical environments.

Cheers

 

[DevonDiver]

Andy - Please don't take anything I've said as a personal attack - I've tried to make it as neutral as I could, while addressing your particular comments. I'm pretty sure if we were to meet in person, it would turn out we have similar thoughts on all the issues, just slightly skewed from out experiences in our typical environments.

Of course, it's a discussion, not an arguement I also apologise if you miscontrued my earlier remark as sarcasm...it was intended as light-hearted humor.. I should have 'smilied' it to make that clear.

With my comments, I am merely trying to raise a rational process to the consideration of redundancy - whilst also differentiating between the words 'want' and 'need'.

Experienced divers know what they need. They also know what they want.

That is not the case for novice divers, who face a blizzard of industry marketing, misinformation and confused messages - which serve to prey upon their desire to increase safety.

A novice diver wants to be safe...and this often leads them to mistakenly believe that they need certain equipment and gadgets. It also leads them into false presumptions; especially with regard to the issue of redundancy.

The need for redundancy is a concept that can easily be explained to even the most rookie diver. The way to analyise and calculate that need can also be easily explained. It's a simple risk asessment that balanced the likelihood of a failure against the repurcussions of that failure. it assesses what is needed to mitigate that failure. It then assesses how many concurrent failures have to happen for those mitigating issues to be nullified. etc etc

Telling novice divers about what you personally like, or what you want, doesn't help them decipher their own redundancy issues.

It isn't a case of location. It isn't a case of "what you like versus what I like".

It's about providing clear and beneficial insight into the process that we experienced divers use to calculate what we need.

 

[TSandM]

I think you can look at a dive and say, "What equipment do I need to do this dive?" This is considering the uneventful execution of the dive, and the most likely issues. For example, for a boat dive, I carry an SMB, because signaling the boat is not at all unlikely as something I might have to do. For night dive, I obviously carry a light.

Then you can ask yourself, "How much of an issue will it be, if I don't have "x"?" The answers can range from, "I can do without it," (in which case you might ask if you needed to take it at all), to "I can use my buddy's", to "I'm in a world of hurt." The answer to the question determines whether you need redundancy on that item or not (as does the answer to the question, "Is my buddy for this dive reliable?").

So, for an example, if I'm doing a night dive at a shore diving site in Puget Sound, I take a light. Do I need a backup light? If my primary light fails, I don't have a very good way to signal my buddy that I have a problem. If I lose my buddy (easy to do, in the dark without a light, and in the poor viz we often have), I have to get back to shore in complete darkness. Carrying a backup light is easy, and the potential benefit is great.

On the same dive, do I need a redundant computer? If I lose mine, I have my buddy's; if I lose my buddy, too (I'm having a VERY bad night) I can swim upslope to go home. Conclusion: No backup gauge needed.

If you just think through the likely issues, and think about how you would cope with them (what the ideal strategy is, and what alternate strategies you have) I think it won't be very difficult to decide which things you need to have in duplicate.

 

[highdesert]

The only redudndant equipment we (wife/buddy and me) carry on every dive is gauges. We've both had computer failures, and given our diving is always halfway around the world and, consequently, very expensive and hard to come by, we double up there. We both have AI console computers, a wrist computer of same brand/algorithm, an SPG, and at least one of us has a dive watch.

We use Miflex hoses where they're effective to keep things compact and streamlined. No danglies. There's an experienced diver participating in this thread who has already poked some fun at this arrangement in another thread; maybe he can refrain here. We think it's a sensible arrangement.

 

[lowviz]

For me, diving is fun and I accept as fact that diving includes increased personal risk.

There is no lack of conflicting opinions on what constitutes ‘good dive safety’. I think that this is what the OP is struggling with.

Maybe this would help a bit:
I started with an LDS in fairly typical manner. Bring a mask, fins, snorkel and be at the pool in time so you don’t keep others waiting. I’m in “puppy-dog” mode here, no thoughts as to whether I needed an extra fin strap, spare mask, box of flares, etc. I soon became a “generic” diver. It was a lot of fun, still is. Probably could have just stayed in that mode, but I enjoy problem solving and tend to be analytical.

Dives pass, skills increase, and I found that the way I do risk assessment was very similar to a group of divers that call themselves “Hogarthian”. Even better, they did a lot of things that seemed to make sense. I was doing bigger dives and having a different kind of fun doing them. Bottom line, following their style saved me a lot of time figuring everything out for myself and I am still alive and unbent.

Now, I’m looking at other styles with what I hope is an open mind. Minimalism is very interesting, but so is DIR. Why can’t I dive minimalist with a minimalist risk-set when I’m diving with minimalists and DIR with DIR rules when I want to dive with DIRs? Neither one is “right”, just different solutions to different underwater experiences.

It is a personal thing.

 

[robbcayman]

Wow, some guys take everything including the kitchen sink. I prefer to be more streamlined. Luckily, my BCD only has a simple roll down pocket, so I'm limited on what I take.

Knife attached to BCD
Safety Sausage on D ring
whistle on D ring
Gear retractor for aeris atmos ai computer on D ring

That's all I carry, but I'm not doing night dives or caves etc.. For just recreational diving I have everything I need.

 

[Crowley]

I agree with the sentiment that you take what you need, not try to plan for every single possibility. A backup light on a night dive is a good idea, but if you are in a group of four people, does every diver need a backup? If you're recreational night diving then you may well find you are in visual range of lights from the shore or the boat. If you are solo night diving in poor viz and poor conditions then three of everything would be a good idea. A better idea would be to not go diving.

The whole concept of the buddy system is redundancy and I regularly brief my divers that we "are a buddy team of 7 people, so we all look out for each other and if anybody has a problem, just ask the closest person for assistance."

If I had to plan for redundancy every time I went to the supermarket I would have to take another pair of shoes, an extra jacket, first aid kit, three wallets, two packets of cigarettes, a lighter, refill canister and a box of matches, two fully charged mobile phones and just in case my MP3 player broke, my entire CD collection and a boombox.

Or - I could walk the 5 minutes to the supermarket, look both ways when I crossed the road and not worry so much.

Dive safe,

C.

 

[fnfalman]

I know what I need. Other divers must come up with a list of what they think they'd need for redundancy.

We're all big boys and big girls and have organic computers between our ears. Use them.