Enjoy the flight...we're packing......

[Northeastwrecks]

Yes, but remember. You don't need to kill them. All you need to do is give them something else to think about, like a faceful of mace, multiple gunshot wounds and, if they are still conscious, hand cuffs or other appropriate restraints.

In Massachusetts, we are expected to render first aid to the wounded criminal if qualified and it is safe to do so. Of couse, my training does not cover subhumans, so I wonder whether I'm qualified.

 

[scuberd]

Unfortunately I am unable to buy a hand gun for another year and a half. I know you don't need to kill them, but sometimes the situation may warrant it, like if I thought my life was in danger, or if the "subhuman" was threatening someone I care about.

In California, you need to get permission from the victim before administration of first aid, that is not always possible

 

[Northeastwrecks]

scuberd once bubbled...
Unfortunately I am unable to buy a hand gun for another year and a half. I know you don't need to kill them, but sometimes the situation may warrant it, like if I thought my life was in danger, or if the "subhuman" was threatening someone I care about.

In California, you need to get permission from the victim before administration of first aid, that is not always possible

Massachusetts as well, if they're conscious. Otherwise, consent is implied.

Outside of the military, I've never drawn on someone with the express intention of killing them. Even if I had been forced to shoot in the incident described above, my goal would have been threat eradication.

Of course, one of the most basic elements of a successful take down is to aim for center of mass. The fact that there are numerous vital organs located there is not my fault.

 

[clive francis]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


Sorry, old boy, you're ignorance is showing again.

Our society is not armed. Certain segments of our society are armed. Unfortunately, its the wrong segment.

Consider this. Your typical criminal animal knows that the person he is about to rob is probably not carrying. There is very little risk because the animal has the weapon (gun, knife or whatever).

Now consider what would happen if the animal thought that there was a significant chance that the person he was about to rob was carrying and was trained to use it. I respectfully suggest that he might reconsider.

You've got it backwards. Being armed doesn't make prople polite. Knowing that other people are armed helps reinforce politeness in those segments of society that need a little reminder that they can be turned into fertilizer if they get out of line.

You're last statement is nothing more than farm animal stupid. When weapons are handled properly, you don't shoot yourself because you know how to handle them safely. Like diving, those safety procedures need to become second nature.

i meant them using your own weapon on you

If you're talking about getting shot with your own weapon during an assault on your person or property, that doesn't fly either. You need to stay aware of your surroundings so that the subhumans never have a chance to get close enough to get your weapon. That doesn't require much more than looking around and being situationally aware.

In the example I gave a few posts ago (defending myself and my wife from mugging through the credible threat of lethal force), I recognized an unsavory person approaching more than one block away (remember that people generally don't get mugged when they are in a crowd). I alerted my wife and evaluated the situation. We crossed the street and so did he. He looked around furtively, then fixed on us and continued to approach at an increasing pace. I drew and kept it out of sight (my holster is a deep concealment model and I was wearing an overcoat). When he got to within 20 feet, we stopped and I challenged him verbally. He demanded money and moved toward my wife. I brought my weapon up from under my coat, drew a bead on his chest and instructed him (in my best command voice) to put his hands up and back away. My wife also drew and began scanning for his friends. She covered me while I had him empty his pockets and kick them towards me. He had a hunting knife, which I broke against the curb, and a welfare card, which somehow got lost, oops. He wet himself and ran off. I didn't shoot him because he was no longer a threat. I didn't chase him because that would not be smart.

The result: Mugging averted, possible assault averted, possible rape averted, possible murder averted, one scumbag candidate for a pine box scared and driven off.

What would you have done? Pee'd your pants, given him your money and hoped that you had succeeded in buying your freedom?

There was never any chance of being shot with my own weapon because he never got close enough to try. Rest assured that one step toward me would have resulted in three loud bangs and a free trip to the morgue. Like most bullies, however, he backed off when confronted by a superior force.

If a criminal animal does get too close, you're potentially scr*wed. In that case, don't telegraph that you're carrying, follow instructions and wait for an appropriate opportunity to attempt a disarm/draw/neutralize. That's part of the reason I carry defensive aerosol spray and a knife in the same pocket where most men carry their cash. Scumbag thinks I'm going for the cash, then gets a faceful of mace, followed up by three loud bangs and a hot reload. Alternatively, while he's writhing around on the ground, a quick introduciton of my blade to his throat solves the problem quietly.

So once again, I ask you. What would you do if you were walking down the street with your family and a couple of thugs approached. You attempt to evade, they follow, corner, draw knives and threaten your wife and baby. They are acting irrationally and it doesn't appear that their desires are limited to money. You have 0.5 seconds to decide.

things don't always go to plan though, and people even cops are shot with their own weapon.

no i wouldn't have peed my pants, how do i know, because i have had a cut throat razor put to my throat before, luckily they had a steady hand and i had nothing to take.

I would have no hesitation in killing someone to protect my family, but here in the UK we don't have the luxury of being able to carry guns or mace as they are banned, so left with the choice of giving or loosing a family member or myself i would have to give.

last year i was at a family party and someone tried to steal my uncles car, i told them to clear off, but hiding around the corner and out of sight were 5 of his mates, so i ended up fighting 6 guys over a crappy old car, after being kicked and punched in the head several times, (needing several stitches) some one pulled them off but not before i got 5 good punches to one guys eye and a good kick in the nuts!

my uncle said you should have let them steal it.

so yeah i know what it is like to face someone

 

[Northeastwrecks]

clive francis once bubbled...


last year i was at a family party and someone tried to steal my uncles car, i told them to clear off, but hiding around the corner and out of sight were 5 of his mates, so i ended up fighting 6 guys over a crappy old car, after being kicked and punched in the head several times, (needing several stitches) some one pulled them off but not before i got 5 good punches to one guys eye and a good kick in the nuts!

With all sincerity, I hope that you weren't too badly injured.

However, you've made my point to some extent. If you were allowed to protect yourself properly, you could have drawn after the mob showed itself. While you could not have used lethal force to protect property, you sure could have used it to defend yourself.

It also goes to show that things are not necessarily better in the UK. You've banned guns entirely. I suspect that the ban doesn't stop hardened criminals from obtaining them, although there may be a cultural bias against using them that persists even in your criminals.

 

[clive francis]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


With all sincerity, I hope that you weren't too badly injured.

However, you've made my point to some extent. If you were allowed to protect yourself properly, you could have drawn after the mob showed itself. While you could not have used lethal force to protect property, you sure could have used it to defend yourself.

It also goes to show that things are not necessarily better in the UK. You've banned guns entirely. I suspect that the ban doesn't stop hardened criminals from obtaining them, although there may be a cultural bias against using them that persists even in your criminals.

while they are not freely available on every corner, no doubt if i made enquirries i could get one, but at the moment in the UK, they are only used for the wrong things.

only recently have the police started carrying weapons on normal beats in london, but this is due to the massive influx of immigrants (both legal and non) who seem to wish to live and die by the sword and are dragging the rest of us down to their festering level!

my personal view, but must admit if you ask most brits, is to say nuts (can't print the more commonly used term) to them and kick them all out, as they come here claiming persecution and start setting up vice and drug dens with goverment hand outs.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Believe me, I feel the same way about some of the people who come here. Some of them are on welfare as soon as they arrive. They refuse to learn to speak the language in interest of preserving the culture from which they were fleeing, then complain when they can't get a job. You see them hanging around downtown while the rest of us are trying to work.

People like that are the reason the town in which I live stations a couple of marked cruisers at each entrance to town (there are only four ways in). Come into my town looking for trouble and you'll be followed by one of the cruisers until your intentions are verified.

 

[Cave Diver]

clive francis once bubbled...
while they are not freely available on every corner, no doubt if i made enquirries i could get one, but at the moment in the UK, they are only used for the wrong things.

That is precisely the point. Gun laws just keep guns out of the hands of those that would normally abide by the law anyway. Your average, honest citizen would not carry a gun, if such was against the law.

However, if a criminal is going to break the law by robbing, beating, raping, what's to stop him from using an unlawful weapon to commit his unlawful act?

As Northeastwrecks stated, if they know that their potential victim may be armed, and trained in the use of that armament, it does tend to give pause...

After Texas enacted the CHL (concealed handgun license) violent crimes dropped significantly. There is a lot of speculation to the reason, but certainly the idea that a potential victim may be armed has to play into account somewhere in the mind of a criminal.

Furthermore, to obtain a CHL, one has to undergo a full day of classroom training, as well as qualifying on the range. You then have to pass an extensive background check. Since this has been enacted, the penalty for the unlicensed possession of a handgun has been stiffened as well.

Another key factor is the "concealed" part. If you get caught flashing your gun around, or even allowing it to be visible, you can face charges and revocation of your CHL. So it's well advised that the drawing of your weapon be justified.

One final thought. The class I took emphasized that drawing your weapon was a last resort. If that weapon comes out, you had best be prepared to use it. And if you do have to use it, you were advised to use deadly force. If you fear for your safety, then deadly force is necessitated. If you don't feel that deadly force is justified, then the perceived danger is probably not great enough.

I have never had to draw my weapon, and I pray that I never will. Choosing to carry one is an awesome responsibility, but I honestly think that it does make society as a whole a lot more civilized, because you never know whether someone may be armed or not...

Just my $.02.

 

[DivePartner1]

clive francis once bubbled...
a well armed society is a polite society?

This is a quote from P.J. O'Rourke's book Holidays in Hell.

In his tour through the middle east he noticed that Yemenis were invariably armed with AK 47s and long ceremonial knives . . . and were scrupulously polite to each other.