Emergency: air or Nitrox?

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Trisha

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Location
Oklahoma City, OK
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Here's a hypothetical situation -- my husband and I are diving with a group and suddenly someone starts to have convulsions. Choking, shaking, spitting out the reg, that sort of thing. I'm close by, so should I offer my octopus, even though I don't know what is in that person's tank?

The reason I ask is a friend of ours and his wife were diving in the Caribbean and got some bad air on their first dive (headaches, nausea) so they switched to Nitrox for the rest of their trip. If we had been with them would it have been a bad idea to give them Nitrox during a safe accent? Or visa versa? We are OWD certified by SSI with just 15-25 dives so far, but this is something that could come up in the future.

To recap: can you share air with a Nitrox diver? Any exceptions? Can you share Nitrox with an air diver? Any exceptions?
I understand that this is an "until we can both make a safe accent" situation, depending on what our maximum depths/time/air-remaining-in-my-tank are saying.

Trish
 
Yes.
Sharing air may save their life. Only problem I could see is if you are close to the MOD of your EAN mix. The procedure for a convulsing diver is to keep a reg in their mouth and safely ascend.
If your air is safe for you It should be safe for them.
I would reccomend every diver take a rescue class and a Nitrox course.

Joe
 
In a life or death situtation it really doesn't matter what you or your buddy have in your tank. If the person is out of breathing gas, no matter what that gas might be or the reason they are out of it, ask yourself this question. Can they live without whatever you have in your tank be it air or Nitrox? Probably not. In an OOA situtation the person is going to die without some sort of breathing gas so better to give them whatever you have then none at all. Besides, you're not going to be staying at the depth this all takes place at for very long because you're going to abort the dive and make a safe ascent anyway.

Scott
 
Trisha Uselton:
Here's a hypothetical situation -- my husband and I are diving with a group and suddenly someone starts to have convulsions. Choking, shaking, spitting out the reg, that sort of thing. I'm close by, so should I offer my octopus, even though I don't know what is in that person's tank?

The reason I ask is a friend of ours and his wife were diving in the Caribbean and got some bad air on their first dive (headaches, nausea) so they switched to Nitrox for the rest of their trip. If we had been with them would it have been a bad idea to give them Nitrox during a safe accent? Or visa versa? We are OWD certified by SSI with just 15-25 dives so far, but this is something that could come up in the future.

To recap: can you share air with a Nitrox diver? Any exceptions? Can you share Nitrox with an air diver? Any exceptions?
I understand that this is an "until we can both make a safe accent" situation, depending on what our maximum depths/time/air-remaining-in-my-tank are saying.

Trish

You KNOW your gas is ok to breathe - you're breathing it.

You have no idea what is in the other diver's tank. If HIS gas is causing him problems, you are helping him.

The potential issue comes if he is not coherent enough to rationally exchange regulators. That can be a problem.

If he is convulsing and has spat out the reg, then he's in imminent danger of drowning. Some folks say "get him to the surface." I say "get him something to breathe, THEN get him to the surface, but in a controlled way once the convulsion abates and he begins respiration."

Realize that if he is convulsing he may be experiencing an O2 hit. If he is then it is critical that you not ascend with him - not even a foot - until he begins to breathe. It is also critical that when he DOES begin to breathe that there is a REG IN HIS MOUTH.

During the convulsion his glottis will be locked closed. If you ascend with him during this time he will suffer pulmonary barotrauma - quite possibly fatal. In other words, you may KILL him. In addition if he does not have a reg in his mouth and begins to breathe again after the convulsion abates he will inhale water, and that is extremely likely to kill him.

If you SEE someone convulse you should assume that it is an O2 hit and keep the reg in his mouth if he has one. The convulsion ITSELF will not harm him - drowning, however, will. If he has ejected the reg, I'd give him MINE, since I KNOW my gas is safe to breathe at the depth we are at (I'm breathing it now!) Keep it in his mouth and prepare to ascend with him FROM BEHIND when he comes around; it should not take more than a minute or so - be prepared for the victim to quite possibly have no idea where he is or what's going on, and to be highly combative (e.g. a full-on panic!) Once he is breathing or goes limp, it is then safe to ascend (protect his airway if he is not breathing on his own!) So long as he is "rigid" his airway is almost 100% certain to be locked closed and you must NOT ascend.

The logic behind not replacing his reg if he still has his is that there is a risk of flooding his airway, and the convulsion itself won't harm him - but flooding his airway will. He may convulse again once he comes around, but once he's coherent you can switch regs with him in control (offer him yours), and further, once you ascend significantly his PO2 will drop and in a couple of minutes the risk of convulsion will go down. If he has already ejected his reg then you can't make the situation worse by giving him yours, and there's a very good chance that he ejected it with his glottis locked shut, and thus there is little if any water that has gotten in there. As such you can't make the situation worse - and insuring that he has AIR to breathe when he comes around might save his life.

This assumes you SEE the convulsion. If you come across an unconscious diver then it becomes much more difficult, as you can assume nothing about why it happened. You can't "fix" him on the bottom, so you are forced to ascend with him - realize that he may have a deco obligation, he may have inhaled a huge amount of water, all kinds of things could have happened. But standard protocol is that you take him up, because you can't help him underwater if you have no idea what is going on, and there is no way to assess that on the bottom. The best you can do is to check and make sure he's not locked-rigid (obviously in the middle of a convulsion), protect his airway so that any air in his lungs can expand out his mouth as you ascend, keep his reg in his mouth if he has it still in there, and get him to the surface at a controlled rate.
 
Trisha Uselton:
Here's a hypothetical situation -- my husband and I are diving with a group and suddenly someone starts to have convulsions. Choking, shaking, spitting out the reg, that sort of thing. I'm close by, so should I offer my octopus, even though I don't know what is in that person's tank?

If they've spit out the reg, then yes. It's also safe to assume that if you're diving in their vicinity, then whatever gas it is that you're breathing is safe to breathe at that depth... And so whatever you're donating is safe for them.

There's a variety of reasons that someone may be convulsing, including OxTox and even epilepsy. So... While the symptoms and the situation may make you assume that they're experiencing OxTox, that may not be the case.

The bottom line is that you would want to do a rescue, and since OxTox is a possibility, I would donate and do a tired swimmer tow... That is, get behind them and hold onto their tank valve while straddling them... And ascending. I would donate and hold the reg in their mouth (reaching around their head) with my right hand while controlling the ascent (30 fpm) with my left hand. Once on the surface I would inflate their BC or wing fully, and attempt to gain contact with the person. They may be able to understand you but unable to respond. I'd make it a point to remain calm, and say whatever I could to soothe the person - unless waves kept me from being able to spit out my own reg.

I would then get them secured on deck and seek medical attention immediately.

All of this is covered in Rescue. I recommend the class.

To recap: can you share air with a Nitrox diver? Any exceptions? Can you share Nitrox with an air diver? Any exceptions?

The bottom line is that if you're in the vicinity to share, then whatever you're diving is safe for them to breathe also.

Nitrox has different "boundaries" than air does... Air can be breathed at deeper depths than Nitrox, but Nitrox has the property of having longer NDL's than air does.

So... Yes... You're right in worrying that the two don't really mix. For example, if you were on air and a guy on Nitrox was OOG and near his NDL, then donating would put him over his NDL - and so a direct ascent to the surface would entail an increased risk. Conversely, if you're on Nitrox and the other diver is OOA (air) and you donate, then potentially you're giving him a gas which shouldn't be breathed at that depth anyway (of course, then you could ask, "What were YOU doing at that depth anyway?") So yes... Your concern is correct. However, in the real situation with any OOG/OOA diver, your thought process should be only one: Getting the diver something to breathe.

So I would say that you always want to donate to any diver unable to breathe (whether from convulsions or from OOA/OOG).
 
Genesis:
During the convulsion his glottis will be locked closed. If you ascend with him during this time he will suffer pulmonary barotrauma - quite possibly fatal.

Great point, Gen... :) That's something that I left out of my post. :)

Yeah, what Gen said. :)

I'd like to also add that if you do donate and the diver is unconscious or still convulsing, do not forget to purge the reg for them. Getting a lungful of water as their first breath might not be a good idea. ;)
 
Genesis -- bingo! You nailed it.
Of course, I haven't taken Nitrox classes yet, so the idea of oxygen toxicity is still new to me. The idea that my tank could add to an existing PO2 load is troubling, but so is watching someone drown.

Thanks for all the advice, and very quick it has been, too!
 
If you're into the science of partial pressures (which lead to OxTox), then check this link: http://www.iantd.com/rebreather/phys.html

Lots of great information there, and a great precursor to a Nitrox class.

It's generally accepted that a partial pressure of 1.6 or higher means elevated risk of OxTox, and that divers really shouldn't exceed a partial pressure (PPO2) of 1.4. If you follow the math that they provide you on that page, you can figure out the exact points at which oxygen becomes toxic. In fact, you can actually figure out where 100% becomes toxic, 50% becomes toxic, and the popular Nitrox mixes of 32% and 36% become toxic. In fact, you can even figure out where air (21%) becomes toxic! These depth limits are called "maximum operating depths," or "MOD" for short. Generally, agencies teach that 20 feet is MOD for 100%, 70 feet is MOD for 50%, 100 feet is MOD for 36%, 120 feet is MOD for 32%, and 200 feet is MOD for air (21%). (Of course, you'd never want to do 200 feet on air anyway, since you'd be narced badly from the nitrogen in air).

Further adding to the confusion is the fact that exceeding a PPO2 of 1.6 - that is, going below MOD on a given mix - does not immediately cause OxTox. In addition to % O2 and depth is time... The longer the exposure, the more likely the gas is to cause an OxTox hit.

...But it's safe to say that MODs should simply be adhered to in order to keep the risk acceptably low.

Now that you know about PPO2, you can probably understand why very deep dives (say, to 300') should be performed on a mix that's hypoxic - that is, a LOWER percentage of O2 than is in air. 18% is common for this reason. However, because of the narcotic effect of nitrogen, a diver would not want to increase the amount of nitrogen in the breathing mix, especially at those sorts of depths! Thus, they add another gas - a very light one which can be removed from the body tissues quicker than nitrogen - helium.

...And that gas, consisting of three main gasses - nitrogen, oxygen, and helium - is called "trimix," and is recognized as the most advanced of commonly breathed scuba gasses.

Interesting, eh? :)
 
SeaJay:
For example, if you were on air and a guy on Nitrox was OOG and near his NDL, then donating would put him over his NDL - and so a direct ascent to the surface would entail an increased risk.
Think this through before you speak - you're honestly going to worry about donating air to a nitrox diver because they might be near their no-decompression limit?

They've got nothing left to breath - exceeding the NDLs is not something to be concerned about. Getting them a working regulator is. Doing a safe ascent is. Worrying about whether you've just pushed them a minute into deco obligation if they happened to go OOA the moment they hit their NDL limit is not.

Hopefully no new divers reading this thread are now worried about donating air to nitrox divers.

Where did the impromptu trimix lesson come from?
 

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