Embrace a New Double Hose Regulator

[Caveeagle]

Count me as one who has been considering a kraken and am intrigued by the double hose regs.
However, I am very turned off by your decision to use CCR scare tactics to sell your product.

You are comparing apples to chimpanzees! I’d love to see you try half the dives being performed CCR with a double hose reg and then compare accident rates. Sure CCR is expensive, complex and requires a lot of training. It’s a tool.. good for some things, but perhaps not all things,

Just two days ago, I was swimming my O2ptima out of the Devils Cave system after a nice relaxing dive. A the end of the spring run, I just dropped to 10’ in the Little Devil’s crevice and thoroughly enjoyed all the fish and schooling minnows that not only allowed me to get close, bu t totally swam towards me. I think this was the first time I felt totally immersed in a school of tiny fish like this. Wish I had my Paralenz with me for that.

 

[The Ruttmeister]

Keen to hear your opinions on why?
From what I can see there haven't been too many real advances in SCUBA regulator design in 20 years, the market seems absolutely saturated and open to a 'new' product line.
Diving a double hose in 2019 always causes a stir, particularly amongst photographers who can immediately appreciate the relative silence and lack of bubbles/exhalation pulse... very good for macro!
If a major manufacturer released a new (well designed... NOT another Aqualung Mistral II debacle) double hose reg on the market with full international dealer support I bet it would be a success.
Atomic Aquatics D3 Ti anyone?

Basically inertia. Single hose regs sell well enough that manufactures and dive shops stay in business, its not like back in the day when there were big leaps in performance or safety with newer equipment. A DHR is a risk to launch as a product (as opposed to back in the day when failing to launch a newer safer product was a risk), big established companies are by their nature risk averse.
I totally agree that something like the Kraken, if backed by a major manufacturer and as a result available in many dealers worldwide would be a success. I just don't think the risk vs return calculation would give the right numbers for an existing manufacturer. Its 'new' tech (to them), probably won't increase their market share much, and requires training that is no longer part of the PADI (or whoever) OW course (even if its just the different purge technique).
If AUP/Hollis was still family owned I could see someone like that taking a risk on bringing in VDH/Argonaught as a brand to see if there's a market there (they were willing to take some big risks like putting out a SCCR for rec use), but probably not now.
And the global scuba reg market is small enough that its hard to find an investor that would be willing to back an attempt to take VDH/Argonaught international and volume production.

Count me as one who has been considering a kraken and am intrigued by the double hose regs.
However, I am very turned off by your decision to use CCR scare tactics to sell your product.

~snip~

When manufacturers have "this device will kill you without warning" written on their product...

But seriously, I don't think I've seen Bryan of VDH talking down about CCR's. And I don't want to put words in his mouth, but as I undersatnd it the Kraken came into being because he wanted a modern double hose, not because of the risks of CCR's. He's part of the community that is huge fans of Sea Hunt, diving with vintage equipment being part of the fandom.
I'm of a younger generation that is getting into double hose regs for the other benefits (namely the relocated exhaust), weird and unique equipment is a plus, but its nothing to do with the vintage look for me.

But we are also taking on a thread about a failed crowd funding campaign, more than four years ago.

 

[rhwestfall]

A post here on SB in August 2019 from a new owner showed Argonaut Kraken #5000....

 

[The Ruttmeister]

Well... assuming that the serials are sequential and don't skip blocks or anything, that's awesome!
And even if there are a lot less than 5000 out there, the fact that they are still being made and shipped is a heck of an achievement.

 

[AfterDark]

Count me as one who has been considering a kraken and am intrigued by the double hose regs.
However, I am very turned off by your decision to use CCR scare tactics to sell your product.

You are comparing apples to chimpanzees! I’d love to see you try half the dives being performed CCR with a double hose reg and then compare accident rates. Sure CCR is expensive, complex and requires a lot of training. It’s a tool.. good for some things, but perhaps not all things,

Just two days ago, I was swimming my O2ptima out of the Devils Cave system after a nice relaxing dive. A the end of the spring run, I just dropped to 10’ in the Little Devil’s crevice and thoroughly enjoyed all the fish and schooling minnows that not only allowed me to get close, bu t totally swam towards me. I think this was the first time I felt totally immersed in a school of tiny fish like this. Wish I had my Paralenz with me for that.

It appears that was the point. CCRs are great if your gong to dive to 200+FSW and take pictures of X all day. However someone like me that can only find photog. visibility above 15FSW of chilly water, locally which is 99% of my U/W photog. then a DBL hose makes a lot sense. If a CCR puts a diver to sleep in 10FSW or 400FSW unconscious is unconscious, and U/W it is mostly fatal. Why take the chance in 10FSW with a CCR? A DBL hose got me there, cheaper, w/o training (for seniors anyway) and with no more risk than any other OC. Even has an octo on it.

I don't see anything wrong with the sale pitch, but then I'm not CCR "pilot". You CCR guys seem a little over defensive of your CCRs in my observations. Excuse me for noticing.

 

[Bryan@Vintage Double Hose]

I have nothing against rebreathers pro or con. I am not nearly educated on them enough to the point of having a real opinion.
What I do know, is when the Argonaut DSV was brought out there was plenty of talk from the homemade rebreather community on using it.... I also had requests from two rebreather manufactures for free samples. On advice from legal council who is also a diver of 40+ years, I simply put NOT FOR REBREATHER USE in the product information. I have never made any claim that it was precision enough to use as such. What the buyer does I cannot control but my attempt was a CYA not a knock on rebreathers.

 

[tbone1004]

@Bryan@Vintage Double Hose it works fine on CCR's and is built well enough to behave properly. @Luis H made a shockingly good design with it.... I understand the warning on them, same with Thermo putting no nitrox over 40% on the valves, though I find it annoying that it's engraved on there vs. a waiver or sticker or something, but CYOA is a good idea for a small company

 

[Akimbo]

... I understand the warning on them, same with Thermo putting no nitrox over 40% on the valves, though I find it annoying that it's engraved on there vs. a waiver or sticker or something, but CYOA is a good idea for a small company

Heck, we should be happy that the lawyers didn't want warnings not to dive in everything from turpentine to potato salad.

 

[Luis H]

Full disclosure, I have a Kraken on order and I work in hardware development.

I wish Bryan over at VDH could quit his day job to just build regulators, but I totally respect that fact that he isn't willing to take that risk. More importantly, I'm willing to take the risk that he will still be in business in a few years and I will be able to get parts!

I'd love to see modern double hose regs in dive shops, but I don't think that's going to happen for a bunch of reasons.

Just an FYI: I designed the Argonaut with many different criteria’s into consideration. The first and most important was performance, but closely behind it was ease of service, durability, ability to be manufactured by a small company (in small batches), and very important also is its ability to be serviced by your kids and grand-kids decades after Bryan is gone.

Don’t get me wrong. Bryan is a good friend and I wish him the best (and a very long life), but I did not want to design a regulator that would go through the same issues I had with my 1971 Royal Aqua Master, when US Divers (Aqua Lung) quit supporting it.

I hope Bryan is around for many years, but I also want your grand-kids to be able to service my designs.

I can’t promise that all the rubber parts will be around, but I know Bryan is making them out of silicone and they will be in as new condition for many decades. We are also only using fairly standard mushroom valves, like modern re-breathers (no specialized old flutter duck-bill valves).

All the needed serviceable parts are available from other manufacturers if needed. The LP and HP seats are the same as in other regulators and they are even available from other after-market suppliers.

The metal parts that could get damaged (except for the main body) can be easily reproduced by any hobby machinist. No specialized skills other than knowing to run a lathe or end-mill.If you are careful, you will never damage the main-body.

The best source for parts for your Argonaut is VDH, and Bryan is a good friend so I will like to support him, but be assured that parts will be available for a long, long time, by design.

Note: Bryan is a friend and I support him and VDH, but I am an independent design engineer. I have no financial or any other affiliation with VDH.