DSS wing - not a donut - discuss

[cool_hardware52]

Market share. Customer base. Money. Company longevity. Jobs for production staff.

Every choice has impacts both pro and con. Should I commit resources, tooling, inventory, my time, webpage revisions, tradeshow booth space etc. to a product that doesn't offer any real improvement to my current offerings, or should I direct those same resources to something genuinely new and different?

We all want your business to thrive.

Thank you!


Tobin

 

[Patrick]

I originally asked the question because I was having such difficulty helping you understand the difference between simple curves and compound curves. If you did your own pattern development I thought we might have a common ground to discuss the matter.

Tobin, I want certain shapes and certain materials. I leave the sewing to professionals. I have no desire to learn how to sew. I have ideas and I bring them to the market. Simple as that. Not sure why you want to argue or care how I get my ideas to market other than a weak attempt to embarrass me. I have no worries there.

I work with people that have a lot of experience in this business. You discount that by saying it does not allow new thought. What a load of crap! That is almost as bad as saying you don't consider any of your competition as competition. Who do you think you are kidding? You insult the intelligence of people on this list with BS like that.

If you can't do it, it is not worth the extra engineering. It is worth the extra engineering and the customer deserves it. By the way, most people call it sewing unless you are trying to impress someone.

I won't pretend to know your customer better than you do.

Well, it certainly helps to have a certain amount of diving experience to understand the market you are selling to.

Seems I heard that same basic answer in relation to cannie behavoir.

Hopefully your hearing is better than your eye sight because you have a habit of not answering questions and reading what you want to read to suit your needs or position.

If someone inquires as to which of your 16 offerings is best for them, is your answer, "I can't tell you it's a trade secret"? Are they asked to sign a non disclosure if you do tell them? Now that is funny.

If you were a customer, I would treat you differently. I don't feel the need to educate you about the various types of diving or the products that I think are appropriate for certain applications. Go take some training, make the dives and get the experience.

I prefer the scientific method. I like to test lots of ideas, maybe I just lack the confidence to "know" without trying.....

I think it just sounds like you have to try a lot more to get what you want. Fine with me. What you call experimentation, others might call lack of experience. That is exactly why I go to people that have been in the business. You cannot get 30 years of experience in one, two or five years. The people that make my wings have made hundreds and hundreds of different wings and BCs over the years. I guess I could say they have 30 years of experimentation using the scientific method and extra engineering. Sounds more impressive. Sounds more like a resume writing class.

I never said zippers don't work, I said they impose contraints, this you dismissed out of hand

I stated that it imposed no constraints for me. You dismissed that from the beginning.

That's language a pattern maker would understand.

I was wrong thinking that you should have known that 360 zippers were used 20+ years ago as well as recently. Again, that comes with experience in using dive products. If I did not have the team I do, I would be doing a lot of experimentation myself.

Regards

Patrick
----
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
Ph: 772.466.4612
http://oxycheq.com

 

[mmadiver]

This is begining to sound like one of those Discovery channel shows were two motorcycle builders face off an build the best bike they can. Then drive them to vegas where people vote on the best one...

So I propose Tobin vs. Patrick, you build the best rig possible in two weeks then dive the thing to Cancun for a face off. I wan't plenty of skulls and flames embroidered on the wings Gentlemen.....GO!

But in all seariousness I love this, two producers going head to head like this can only mean one thing...Better product!

 

[fishb0y]

So I propose Tobin vs. Patrick, you build the best rig possible in two weeks then dive the thing to Cancun for a face off. I wan't plenty of skulls and flames embroidered on the wings Gentlemen.....GO!

Forget Cancun. Come to Hawaii... After this thread you got to keep it in America.

 

[Patrick]

If you do no R&D, and no production, what's left other than Marketing and perhaps fulfillment?Tobin

Tobin, all designs start here with me. You just seem to have a hard time grasping that. I can do wonders with poster board, rulers and curves.

I would not call it classic R&D, but it is I begin the designs. Sometimes I even just draw it on a piece of paper and have some discussions. When I get the prototype, I make futher changes if required and do so until I get what I want.

Regards,

Patrick
-----
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
Ph: 772.466.4612
http://oxycheq.com

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin, I want certain shapes and certain materials. I leave the sewing to professionals. I have no desire to learn how to sew. I have ideas and I bring them to the market. Simple as that. Not sure why you want to argue or care how I get my ideas to market other than a weak attempt to embarrass me. I have no worries there.

I never ever met, in any design discipline, architecture, engineering, or scuba gear for that matter any designer that failed to benefit from working with the tools. This imparts a degree of understanding that's difficult to convey otherwise.

I work with people that have a lot of experience in this business. You discount that by saying it does not allow new thought. What a load of crap!

I never discounted that fact, I described it as a wonderful thing.(see post #93) I don't have 30 years of building wings, and I'm sure during development, I have repeated some errors that your Designers and fabricators have left behind years ago. It is just as true however that long experience can imped the introduction of new ideas. There is a reason for example that Honda rotates their new engineers through their motorcycle design bureau for a short 1-2 year stay before they go to auto division. They want to encourage freedom of thought, and the motorcycle division sees more rapid model changes.

That is almost as bad as saying you don't consider any of your competition as competition. Who do you think you are kidding? You insult the intelligence of people on this list with BS like that.

"Tech", and "Transistioning to Tech" and "RecTech" are tiny little subsets of Scuba. If less time was spent with backbitting, and lawsuits, and more was spent promoting the benefits of better diving, this small segment could grow to the point where all of "us" combined would have trouble serving it. It does not have to be a zero sum game, my sales don't have to reduce yours. That's what I hope to see. What about that do you find insulting?

If you can't do it, it is not worth the extra engineering. It is worth the extra engineering and the customer deserves it. By the way, most people call it sewing unless you are trying to impress someone.

When did I ever say I can't do something? I may choose not to use certain techniques.

Hopefully your hearing is better than your eye sight because you have a habit of not answering questions and reading what you want to read to suit your needs or position.

I choose my words with care. I never take positions I'm not prepared to defend. In a debate it is great help when you opponent regularly changes his position. Unsubstantiated claims, and and false attribution don't add to creditbility.

If you were a customer, I would treat you differently. I don't feel the need to educate you about the various types of diving or the products that I think are appropriate for certain applications.

Is the customer not the main reader of this thread?

I stated that it imposed no constraints for me. You dismissed that from the beginning.

All design decisions impose constraints, every single one. Some may be trivial, some may not. Lets say an architect wants has three choices for an entry door into a building, a sliding glass door, a conventional hinged door, and no door at all. Each of these choices will effect the space required to install, the nature of the framing, the access requirements on either side, the allowable contour of the wall, the degree of security, etc., etc., etc. Choosing amoung these benefits and constraints is the task of the designer.

Again, I've never said, despite your attempts to put words in my mouth, that zippers don't work, my consistent position is that zippers impose constraints I'd rather avoid.

If your opinion is that vertical wall necessary to install your 360 zipper is an acceptable tradeoff, fine. I prefer a different approach.

I was wrong thinking that you should have known that 360 zippers were used 20+ years ago as well as recently.

When did I ever say I was unaware that 360 zippers have a long history in diving?


Regards,


Tobin

 

[Patrick]

But in all seariousness I love this, two producers going head to head like this can only mean one thing...Better product!

Well, other than the next three wings coming out, I do have a unique idea for bladder material design that looks promising. I should have a prototype of that next week.

Safe diving,

Patrick
-----
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
Ph: 772.466.4612
http://oxycheq.com

 

[GreenDiverDown]

... two producers going head to head like this can only mean one thing...Better product!

No it doesn't. Nothing good will come of this. In fact, just the opposite has occurred. These guys have fallen into a trap and now both have egg on their face.

Sorry... that's the way I see this... very unprofessional. It's one thing to come in here and share knowledge and experience, answer questions about a product, etc. But the tune sours when the bickering starts. I want to at least pretend that the guy I buy from is above such petty arguments. If they have a problem, then they should deal with it in private. Both guys make killer gear... I suppose that I'll just have to be happy about that.

I'm gonna try to forget this thread!

 

[cummings66]

From what I've read of the thread, there will be no winner. I have read every post and have learned from it. I have placed an order for the DSS gear because I like his innovation and for what I want to do his gear seems ideally suited.

For what it's worth, there are several types and needs in diving and no one company can cater to every single one as the best solution, so you must choose what works best for you. I see Tobin and Patrick as 2 good guys who have differing ideas on how to solve a problem, and each has done their best. Now we must choose.

I think both have stated their cases well and that each has missed subtle points the other made. They've said all that can be said and each is passionate about their gear, that's good. I'd hate to have a guy who's not into diving designing my gear, and I know that happens from time to time. I'm just happy they dive and have fun.

 

[Patrick]

I never ever met, in any design discipline, architecture, engineering, or scuba gear for that matter any designer that failed to benefit from working with the tools. This imparts a degree of understanding that's difficult to convey otherwise.

I’ve seen the equipment and mfg process enough to allow me to do what I need to do. Based on the number of successful products I have come up with, it is obviously not e problem for me even though you seem to wish it to be. We just do things differently to meet our end goals. I don’t have a problem with the way you come to an end.

I never discounted that fact, I described it as a wonderful thing.(see post #93) I don't have 30 years of building wings, and I'm sure during development, I have repeated some errors that your Designers and fabricators have left behind years ago. It is just as true however that long experience can imped the introduction of new ideas. There is a reason for example that Honda rotates their new engineers through their motorcycle design bureau for a short 1-2 year stay before they go to auto division. They want to encourage freedom of thought, and the motorcycle division sees more rapid model changes.

Same reason why I involve others that are not related with my manufacturer. Not the first time I mentioned this. It is not all manufacturing either, it is having the experience at diving various equipment in a variety of diving over an extended period.

Sort of like the race car driver working with the pit crew. Who is your driver?

Tech", and "Transistioning to Tech" and "RecTech" are tiny little subsets of Scuba. If less time was spent with backbitting, and lawsuits, and more was spent promoting the benefits of better diving, this small segment could grow to the point where all of "us" combined would have trouble serving it. It does not have to be a zero sum game, my sales don't have to reduce yours. That's what I hope to see. What about that do you find insulting?

Nothing. However, I did find your tone offensive in the exchange.

"When did I ever say I can't do something? I may choose not to use certain techniques

Yes, but your writing leads people to believe that others limited their designs because of zippers and that is not the case.

I choose my words with care. I never take positions I'm not prepared to defend. In a debate it is great help when you opponent regularly changes his position. Unsubstantiated claims, and and false attribution don't add to creditbility.

I saw this something other than a debate and I have been consistent.

Is the customer not the main reader of this thread?

Well, I simply did not realize you wanted to buy a wing? What is your typical gear configuration? Have you started diving doubles yet or still singles? Are you diving a rebreather or OC? Will you be penetrating wrecks, cave neither? What type of cylinder? Wet or dry? How much lead do you need?

All design decisions impose constraints, every single one. Some may be trivial, some may not. Lets say an architect wants has three choices for an entry door into a building, a sliding glass door, a conventional hinged door, and no door at all. Each of these choices will effect the space required to install, the nature of the framing, the access requirements on either side, the allowable contour of the wall, the degree of security, etc., etc., etc. Choosing amoung these benefits and constraints is the task of the designer.

I told you I came up the shapes and then the zipper was installed. If I was adding a window, a sliding glass door or an elevator to the design, I would agree with you. The fact is that it would limit YOUR designs, not mine. The final product is exactly what I wanted.

Again, I've never said, despite your attempts to put words in my mouth, that zippers don't work, my consistent position is that zippers impose constraints I'd rather avoid.

Well, just like I would not use Velcro because of the issue with sand and wear. We can agree to disagree.

Again If your opinion is that vertical wall necessary to install your 360 zipper is an acceptable tradeoff, fine. I prefer a different approach.

It did not result in me changing the wing design. Sure, the costs may be more. I could use less expensive materials for the product to lower costs, but don’t. Not suggesting you do either. To be honest, I don’t even look at costs until I am satisfied with the end result. If I like it, then I wonder if I can bring it to market at an acceptable cost. Maybe that is just one of the differences between a marketing guy and an engineer.

I did not make the Teledyne MixChek, bit I had input into the design from a user's view point. I'm proud of those contributions. Just another case where the end user and marketing guy has input into a successful product. Never felt I had to do everything to get a product developed or to feel personally gratified. Schwartkoff did not win Desert Storm by himself.

When did I ever say I was unaware that 360 zippers have a long history in diving?

That is my interpretation because previous statements.

Regards,

Patrick
-----
OxyCheq
3812 Crossroads Parkway
Fort Pierce FL 34945
Ph: 772.466.4612
http://oxycheq.com