Dry Suit - Learning to dive dry

[OneBrightGator]

Good point... but let's look back at the two most recent fatalities, one with an instructor and one with a very popular cave guide. If that doesn't make you rethink your safety when you're diving with an instructor, I don't know what will.

You mistakenly believe the only way to foster safe diving is through an instructor, but if you don't have the knowledge, instructor or not, you're screwed.

Bottom line is, when you get in the water, you are your own responsibility and you alone have the best chance of saving your life and/or preventing your death.

 

[Squalus]

Threads pls

 

[diverbrian]

Excuse my morbid sense here, which one of you is willing to accept the blame for a fatality? Johnny takes OW class gets certified. Johnny sees dry suit and has read that all he has to do is watch the video and read the book and waahla he can dive it. Johnny gets some friends who say they know what they are doing diving a dry suit. Johnny does a couple dives and thinks...."ok I can go deeper now", goes deeper has a problem and shoots up and gets bent and passes away. We the community read it in the accidents forum and begin to specualte and throw inuendo's (he should have taken a dry suit class). Is it just me, or are we not suppossed to foster safe diving????


Just my .02

Unfortunately, this type of thing happens too often.

As usual, I see both sides of the issue. Many shops offer the course for free with the drysuit. What's to lose except a couple of hours of the student's time?

But, I have seen mentors that do a better job of showing their buddy the ropes than most instructors. I can't rightfully say that these mentors leave anything out and I have assisted in a couple of drysuit courses myself.

The Catch-22 is liability and responsibility. As people that post here, we are semi-responsible for what gets taken out of our posts. I do NOT want to be the one in open forum that says that a drysuit course is a completely dumb idea. For one thing, I think that they are worth the time and money with the RIGHT instructor. For another, I don't want a "new to drysuit" diver go out and get themselves hurt (or worse) trying to dive something that they aren't familar with because they read on the internet that it was perfectly acceptable to do so with a buddy around them that doesn't have any idea how to teach. See the incident in Gilboa a couple of years ago during DUI Drysuit Demos to see what can happen.

Everything is perfectfully acceptable until someone someone gets hurt. Then the blame game starts. I don't want to be pointing my finger back at my own advice. Jiminy Cricket is alive and well on my shoulder. So my advice on open forums will tend to be a little conservative as I cannot clarify small points near so easily as I can in conversation.

 

[Squalus]

Amen to that Brian...

 

[TekDiveGirl]

Everything is perfectfully acceptable until someone someone gets hurt. Then the blame game starts. I don't want to be pointing my finger back at my own advice. Jiminy Cricket is alive and well on my shoulder. So my advice on open forums will tend to be a little conservative as I cannot clarify small points near so easily as I can in conversation.

It's all fun and games until somebody puts an eye out.

Kimber

 

[TekDiveGirl]

Excuse my morbid sense here, which one of you is willing to accept the blame for a fatality? Johnny takes OW class gets certified. Johnny sees dry suit and has read that all he has to do is watch the video and read the book and waahla he can dive it. Johnny gets some friends who say they know what they are doing diving a dry suit. Johnny does a couple dives and thinks...."ok I can go deeper now", goes deeper has a problem and shoots up and gets bent and passes away. We the community read it in the accidents forum and begin to specualte and throw inuendo's (he should have taken a dry suit class). Is it just me, or are we not suppossed to foster safe diving????

And why does safe diving have to = an instructor?

I know a lot of great divers out there who are a lot better than *many* of the people who carry Instructor cards in their logbook - especially the ones with the newly minted cards. (yes there are a lot of fabulous instruators out there - don't get upset)

Yes we are supposed to foster safe diving - but we are talking about drysuit diving like it is brain surgery here. Cripes - this is basic sport diving.

If somebody dies while rocketing to the surface - I would never say - he shoulda taken a drysuit class - I would likely say - he should practiced more in shallow water if he was brand new to drysuit diving until he got it down. If he wasn't new to drysuit diving - there is some other issue.

I still stand with the point that I would not pay more than the price of the actual c-card for this class. Oh wait -- I didn't...

Kimber

 

[peter_dorset]

Thanks again to everyone for all the comments and advice.

I think responsibility is that of the diver in all circumstances not the training agency nor the divers buddy it is the individual. Unfortunately, the UK is becoming more of a blame culture with people seeking compensation for injuries etc.

Diving in the UK is perhaps one of the most challenging environments low vis 1 meter to 2 and we get excited about 6m viz! and at 30m its pretty dark too. The reason for drive suits is not because the water is cold our oThree Semi drys keep you very warm it’s just cold getting out of the water due to wind chill (hence dry suits)

The cost for the UK training is £100 per person so that’s about $400 for both of us which is why I was wondering about alternatives to a PADI specialty.

We are planning to take the PADI Rescue diver this year at £200 per person, you see I don’t mind paying for training that I can see a value for.

As far as responsibility concerns for safety etc. Is not true to say that a newly qualified Open Water diver (4 dives under the belt) can buy his/her gear go diving the next day to 18 meters with his newly qualified friend and not have a clue about how to send up an SMB and basic safety? This to me is even scarier!

The threads have been really helpful and I currently believe our best option’s would be to await the DVD and obtain our knowledge from an experienced confident DS diver. We are lucky to have access to a military training site with platforms at 6 meters and max depth of 7 meters so that's where I was planning to do the training. Also it has lots of other divers around.

Thanks again.

Peter

 

[NauticalbutNice]

It's all fun and games until somebody puts an eye out.

Kimber

Then it's the fun you can't see...

Good luck with the diving and the drysuit.

Let us know how you get on

Nauticalbutnice :fruit:

 

[String]

Thanks again to everyone for all the comments and advice.

I think responsibility is that of the diver in all circumstances not the training agency nor the divers buddy it is the individual. Unfortunately, the UK is becoming more of a blame culture with people seeking compensation for injuries etc.

Diving in the UK is perhaps one of the most challenging environments low vis 1 meter to 2 and we get excited about 6m viz! and at 30m its pretty dark too. The reason for drive suits is not because the water is cold our oThree Semi drys keep you very warm it’s just cold getting out of the water due to wind chill (hence dry suits)

The cost for the UK training is £100 per person so that’s about $400 for both of us which is why I was wondering about alternatives to a PADI specialty.

We are planning to take the PADI Rescue diver this year at £200 per person, you see I don’t mind paying for training that I can see a value for.

As far as responsibility concerns for safety etc. Is not true to say that a newly qualified Open Water diver (4 dives under the belt) can buy his/her gear go diving the next day to 18 meters with his newly qualified friend and not have a clue about how to send up an SMB and basic safety? This to me is even scarier!

The threads have been really helpful and I currently believe our best option’s would be to await the DVD and obtain our knowledge from an experienced confident DS diver. We are lucky to have access to a military training site with platforms at 6 meters and max depth of 7 meters so that's where I was planning to do the training. Also it has lots of other divers around.

Thanks again.

Peter

Ive seen several people have rocket ascents, the ratio of people that took an official drysuit course to those that didnt is roughly the same. With incidents ive witnessed it seems to affect both equally.

Blame culture is getting really irritating to the point that even the basic first instructor course here has lectures and sessions on dealing with legal aspects which sometimes directly conflicts with good training- you're now taught its more important to cover your back than teach something effectively if theres any chance they could mis interpret. Anyway thats a side issue.

Id rather learn DS off someone thats done hundreds of dives of 10 years but isnt an instructor than a 6-month wonder with a lot of cards.

The SMB/DSMB thing is a worrying thing here as its essential every dive but its not on the PADI syllabus afaik at any level. Again its not a difficult concept and can be shown by someone experienced quickly. However im sure padi or someone will invent a DSMB/SMB speciality and charge an extortionate fee before long. Stongly similar to the DS situation. DSMBs last year hurt more people than drysuits managed in the UK.

 

[simbrooks]

Id rather learn DS off someone thats done hundreds of dives of 10 years but isnt an instructor than a 6-month wonder with a lot of cards.

Not directly picking on any other stuff you said, just that when the instructor vs experienced buddy talk comes up, its often set as newly minted instructor vs old sea salt buddy, there are some old sea salt instructors and of course buddies who still dont quite have the full picture. Given that the extreme case with an instructor can be accounted for by avoiding them or taking their instruction with a pinch of salt, you can still get a good education from someone who dives a DS most of the time and happens to be an instructor. Anyway, as my example shows above, quite a few posts back, i tried it both ways and the learning curve was a bit better (or at least change in skill level) was better when i had a guiding hand than going it alone, and i would highly recommend that route! Its the same with doubles and SMB/liftbags, work with someone who knows what they are doing and work with it, shallow to deeper increments. An instructor might have a more regimented or fuller idea of what they are doing, a good way to present the material, but of course these arent the 9 month wonders, they are the instructors with knowledge, experience and years of diving behind them in the kinds of situations that they are teaching you about.

When it coems to Peter_Dorset, although you have a nice shallow area to train in, try to get someone experienced with you, dont just go it alone and work from the DVD/internet, it will make things long and labourious. If you dont want to pay for an instructor, try to find someone who knows what they are doing and has a spare few hours to do it, i would suggest payment of some kind though, beer, dinner or whatever