Down deep...things to remember

[miketsp]

..snip..
.......I took out primary (on a long hose) and started to unwrap while also trying to get to my secondary [MISTAKE: I let go of my primary while doing all this, before making sure I could breath proiperly though my 2ndry]
....I then (after purging) my 2ndry was breathing very wet, however my hoses were then entangled between each other and with the pull on the hoses I then had trouble with getting back to breath with my primary[MISTAKE: The hoses were not free and clear - my 1mary and 2ndary seemed to be intertwined which I think caused me some of the problems]...luckily one of the buddy team was very close so I indicated to her that I was having problems with my reg and I switched to her octo (although by that time trying to breath slowly while coughing was tricky) so it took us a short time (and it turned out in the process about 20ft in depth) to get back to normal
..snip..

I'm just curious. Did you ever actually train with a long hose or did you just adopt it and carry on diving?

 

[simbrooks]

The test or actual air share donation is always a good thing on the way down. I have only had one wrap up doing that so far, and none on actual dives or further drills in caves or at depth, thankfully.

As for team or buddy diving, i had an experience last may at Ginnie where there were at least 10 divers in the ballroom together at night. Due to this i wanted (and thought others might want too) individual buddy pairs within that group, rather than a hope of getting some gas from the group - but no-one specifically assigned. It wasnt the most comfortable dive for me as it was a concern if stuff went down what might happen. I lost sight of my assigned buddy when he drifted above me (ghosting - covering light to check out the others), i looked a couple of seconds later and couldnt see him, looked around a bit, but still no sign - so i exited even though there were another 8-10 people in the cavern, he caught me on the way out and we left a little after that. So i know what you mean about group diving and such, not something i wish to repeat!

 

[stu_in_fl]

thanks for all the feedback....interesting comments regarding s-drills and buddy teams

 

[Divemastr]

1. You should take all of the gas you need for the dive with you. Don't stage or hang any of it. If you hang a bottle you might be tempted to think of it as a safety back up... in fact those are the words I usually hear. If you think of it as a safety backup then it could affect your decision making during the dive. But you don't know that you will be able to get back to it.

2. I don't know what he was thinking but I would guess it was something along the lines of, "This is a safety backup and they will be able to get back to it if they need it."

Sorry Uncle Pug, but not sure I agree completely here. While it is true that could occur, if the group/buddies agree up front at what PSI the group/buddy dive will end, a hang bottle can still be a good thing in the event an unforseen issue arises. One of the items I always review with my buddy, is the PSI at which the dive at depth will end and we start for the safety stop. Having the hang bottle on the line will allow a successful safety stop in the event that something happens while ascending.

 

[simbrooks]

Sorry Uncle Pug, but not sure I agree completely here. While it is true that could occur, if the group/buddies agree up front at what PSI the group/buddy dive will end, a hang bottle can still be a good thing in the event an unforseen issue arises. One of the items I always review with my buddy, is the PSI at which the dive at depth will end and we start for the safety stop. Having the hang bottle on the line will allow a successful safety stop in the event that something happens while ascending.

But what he is saying (as i understand from other training) is that at no point in the dive will you have less air than it takes you to safely ascend to the surface, including safety stop should one of you have a catastrophic failure (as you are implying i believe), so you should never need the hang bottle as you have enough air to get you and your team out of there. You start ascending at the latest when you reach that predetermined PSI that will allow you to complete that ascent on one tank between two of you - even if one is panicing (higher SAC rate), you allow for it in your plan. Its certainly redundant, but its not in anyway neccessary if you have good planning.

thanks for all the feedback....interesting comments regarding s-drills and buddy teams

Stu, as was asked before, have you had any instruction or mentoring in the use of the long hose, s-drills and such? Its a great tool, but only if you are confidant and skilled in its use. I started diving long hose/bungeed backup at about 30 dives during my AOW, but i had asked my instructor about it and we went through it as i wanted to move towards cave training in the future.

 

[miketsp]

But what he is saying (as i understand from other training) is that at no point in the dive will you have less air than it takes you to safely ascend to the surface, including safety stop should one of you have a catastrophic failure (as you are implying i believe), so you should never need the hang bottle as you have enough air to get you and your team out of there. You start ascending at the latest when you reach that predetermined PSI that will allow you to complete that ascent on one tank between two of you - even if one is panicing (higher SAC rate), you allow for it in your plan. Its certainly redundant, but its not in anyway neccessary if you have good planning.

He used the word "unforeseen" event.
Unforeseen events do happen and providing risk mitigation in the form of a hang bottle is OK as long as it is not included in the basic planning.
Example I had recently.
I was finishing a night dive with my wife and we were coming up to rock bottom so we were just starting our ascent when we had to help another pair with problems.
We ended up extending our bottom time and ascending well below rock-bottom and an o-ring blowout would have caused complications.
So what was I supposed to do? Avoid helping? Since I was already at the shot line, the existence or not of extra gas at the top of the line would then enter the revised planning.

 

[simbrooks]

Rock bottom being the absolute minimum you required, you were already further up in the profile by the sounds of it, so your rock bottom for that depth would have reduced. We are told in cave training that if we are reaching 2/3 gas we should be thinking of exiting, even if our buddy is lost, we only search for the remainder of that first 1/3. After that we are eating into the possibility of us being able to get out alive. Its not an easy decision to make and i hope i never have to. Of course 1/3 is the minimum (for a non-siphoning cave) and you can start exiting before that, but you shouldnt exceed that point unless you are asking for trouble or are in trouble. There is another discussion on when to help someone in a rescue type situation (Rescue from depth) and if you cant safely ascend any longer then you definately arent in a position to safely assist others, why make more victims in an accident if you cant theoretically help out yourself? There is no saying you had to stick to rock bottom, you could have ascended before that. Most places dont have hang tanks unless doing deep dives where newbies are likely to blow through a tank and run past their turn/ascent pressure - that is the reasoning i hear every time i see an operation running with one.

IF you hadnt had that hang tank on your shot line, would you have helped/assisted or actually been concerned with getting at least two of you to the surface on what little gas you had remaining? Of course its hard to turn away from assisting someone, i seem to it one dive in 10 around here with others who arent in my group, either on the surface just before they go in or UW at some point, however i like to make sure that myself and my buddy can actually live through the event as well if that were the kind of stakes we were playing with.

 

[Uncle Pug]

in the event an unforseen issue arises

... or you can foresee the issues that could arise and have a plan to deal with them correctly. Carrying the gas needed with you is prudent.

The issue that you failed to foresee will arise and when you can't make it back to your hang bottle the cascade of failures will have begun.

"Issues" tend to come in herds.

 

[stu_in_fl]

have you had any instruction or mentoring in the use of the long hose, s-drills and such? Its a great tool, but only if you are confidant and skilled in its use. I started diving long hose/bungeed backup at about 30 dives during my AOW, but i had asked my instructor about it and we went through it as i wanted to move towards cave training in the future.

put on initially in preparation of cavern training and talking to the LDS owner on usage (and some of his instructors while on trips etc.)...used it in quite a few pool sessions as well, while doing a variety of things - unfortunately several things got in the way of doing the cavern thing, so that is pencilled in for the near future.....

 

[Kestrell]

Sorry Uncle Pug, but not sure I agree completely here. While it is true that could occur, if the group/buddies agree up front at what PSI the group/buddy dive will end, a hang bottle can still be a good thing in the event an unforseen issue arises. One of the items I always review with my buddy, is the PSI at which the dive at depth will end and we start for the safety stop. Having the hang bottle on the line will allow a successful safety stop in the event that something happens while ascending.

I agree. It is called discipline. You turn at your turn pressure. There is no harm in hanging a bottle. You can plan 24-7 and still have something go wrong. Besides, the divers that push the limit will do so anyway; bottle or no bottle. I know I won't push the limit or deviate from a planned dive, but if something goes wrong and I need the extra air (however unlikely), I would be really PO'd if it wasn't there.