Donating to an OOA

[DevonDiver]

As an aside, there has been a few references to purging the reg before putting it in your mouth- what is this supposed to achieve?

On land it can be beneficial to blow the cockroaches out, but underwater...?

Silt, mud and other muck... useful 'add-on' protocol, IMHO, if you're wreck diving... or when divers show a propensity for allowing their AAS to drag around beneath them...

 

[supergaijin]

So you in fact purge twice? Once to clear muck, and then again after it's in your mouth (assuming you're not 'blow-clearing')

 

[DBailey]

That could get interesting with an integrated inflator/backup second stage.

So the OOA diver is supposed to just mug the "donor" for whatever he's breathing, and the donor just hangs there while it happens? This is actually a documented thing?

flots.

If the OOA diver is out of air and the donor doesn't see his signal, I guess the OOA diver just dies?

Plain and simple, it is an overall discussion in the class that starts with the pre-dive safety check and familiarize the divers with each other's gear. That concept must be lost on the message boards and everything is taken literally.

 

[DevonDiver]

If the OOA diver is out of air and the donor doesn't see his signal, I guess the OOA diver just dies?

Plain and simple, it is an overall discussion in the class that starts with the pre-dive safety check and familiarize the divers with each other's gear. That concept must be lost on the message boards and everything is taken literally.

Here's what PADI supply on their course - these are performance requirements, demanding 'mastery':

Confined Water - Dive 1
- Clear a regulator using both the exhalation and purge button methods, then resume breathing from it.
- Breathe from an alternate air source supplied by another diver for at least 30 seconds.

Confined Water - Dive 2- Respond to air depletion by signaling “out-of-air” in water too deep in which to stand.


Confined Water - Dive 3
- Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air,” and securing and breathing from an alternate air source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least one minute while swimming.
- Supply air to another diver using an alternate air source.

Open Water - Dive 2- Perform each role: In a stationary position, one person signals “out of air” and “share air,” and secures and breathes from an alternate air source provided by another diver; the other diver provides the air source.

- Ascend properly using an alternate air source and establish positive buoyancy at the surface. Act as either donor or receiver.


Assuming that the instructor effectively applies assessment in the spirit of 'mastery', I don't see what issues remain uncovered.

 

[flots am]

Confined Water - Dive 2- Respond to air depletion by signaling “out-of-air” in water too deep in which to stand.

Does this mean that the skill now needs to be done while hovering?

Confined Water - Dive 3
- Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air,” and securing and breathing from an alternate air source supplied by a buddy. Continue for at least one minute while swimming.

That's sort of interesting. I'm not sure why an OOA diver would want to continue swimming. Ascending would seem like a more useful procedure.

- Ascend properly using an alternate air source and establish positive buoyancy at the surface. Act as either donor or receiver.

Does this mean that the skill is satisfied with either one? (a buddy pair needs to only do the skill once, one diver as the donor and one diver as the receiver)

I'm not picking on this. I've never actually seen PADI standards. They seems a little weird.

flots.

---------- Post added ----------

If the OOA diver is out of air and the donor doesn't see his signal, I guess the OOA diver just dies?

Plain and simple, it is an overall discussion in the class that starts with the pre-dive safety check and familiarize the divers with each other's gear.

Teaching a "skill" that says to the OOA diver "Take what you want", and doesn't teach the donor how/what to donate just seems a touch bizarre.

I have to say that these are fascinating requirements. I would have never imagined they existed in this form.

That concept must be lost on the message boards and everything is taken literally.

I'd be willing to bet that in the event of an incident and a lawsuit, every molecule of every word in the PADI Standards would be taken literally.


flots.

 

[Hawkwood]

Does this mean that the skill now needs to be done while hovering?

No, it simply means the exercise in the pool (or "confined water") has to be done at a depth where the student cannot simply stand up and be at surface.

That's sort of interesting. I'm not sure why an OOA diver would want to continue swimming. Ascending would seem like a more useful procedure.

This is a pool (or "confined water") exercise. Recommended maximum depth for an OW diver is 60 feet. Maximum safe assent rate is 60 feet/minute. Therefore, to ascend from 60 feet takes one minute. The purpose of the exercise is to "show" the student that they can easily reach the surface from their maximum recommended depth while sharing air. Since most pools are not 60 feet deep, the students swim around the pool for one minute.

Does this mean that the skill is satisfied with either one? (a buddy pair needs to only do the skill once, one diver as the donor and one diver as the receiver)

This is done in OW. Yes, in this case for the actual ascent, it is done once.

 

[DevonDiver]

Does this mean that the skill now needs to be done while hovering?

No, although PADI did highlight the benefits of early introduction of hovering during skills practice, as a result of an article written by several Scubaboard members.

The reference simply means in 'deep' water during confined. Wheras, earlier skills are completed in shallow water (student can stand up at the surface).

That's sort of interesting. I'm not sure why an OOA diver would want to continue swimming. Ascending would seem like a more useful procedure.

That comes later. It's progressive introduction of skills, component by component.

Does this mean that the skill is satisfied with either one? (a buddy pair needs to only do the skill once, one diver as the donor and one diver as the receiver)

Yes. Both students will have previously practiced air-sharing on several occasions. I'd assume the single ascent reflects an effort by PADI to minimize the number of ascents/descents that occur during open water dives.

When I teach OOA in open-water, I tell the students to progress with the protocol until I signal "cut". On each repetition, they begin ascent - but I normally cease the drill after only a couple of meters ascent. On one practice, I don't "cut" it... they continue to the surface. They won't know which repetition that will occur on.

Teaching a "skill" that says to the OOA diver "Take what you want", and doesn't teach the donor how/what to donate just seems a touch bizarre....I have to say that these are fascinating requirements. I would have never imagined they existed in this form.

What's more important... the ability to preserve your own life (help yourself) or the ability to preserve the victims (donate AAS)?

If we can assume every diver is competent to preserve themselves, then offering assistance becomes a nicety, rather than an essential component.

Given the frequently referenced experiences with "insta-buddies" of dubious quality - I'd rather one of my students was capable of rescuing themselves via access to a buddies' AAS, rather than being reliant on another diver assisting them. That said, I do stress that a calm, controlled approach to the procedure is going to be much more assured.

 

[flots am]

If we can assume every diver is competent to preserve themselves, then offering assistance becomes a nicety, rather than an essential component.

Given the frequently referenced experiences with "insta-buddies" of dubious quality - I'd rather one of my students was capable of rescuing themselves via access to a buddies' AAS, rather than being reliant on another diver assisting them. That said, I do stress that a calm, controlled approach to the procedure is going to be much more assured.

I was thinking more about something like an Air-2/SS-1. If the donor doesn't first switch to his alternate, things would get exciting quickly if he's just mugged for his second stage and isn't good at reg switches. The OOA diver taking the alternate isn't really practical, since there's usually less than a foot of available hose on it and it won't rotate forward enough to use.

OTOH, I never had a lot of confidence that a real OOA diver would actually go through the process of signaling they're OOA and asking to share and giving the donor time to do a reg switch/clear. Just taking the reg seems much more efficient, although it does mean that the donor (possibly unaware of what's going on) needs to be ready to switch to his alternate at any moment.

I can't decide if it's good or bad or just a reflection of reality, but thanks for the explanation.

flots.

---------- Post added ----------

No, although PADI did highlight the benefits of early introduction of hovering during skills practice, as a result of an article written by several Scubaboard members.

It's a nice change. Kneeling on the bottom to do a mask clear or reg switch becomes a problem when over a 1,000' wall (or even a shallow bottom you don't want to mess up).

 

[boulderjohn]

I was thinking more about something like an Air-2/SS-1. If the donor doesn't first switch to his alternate, things would get exciting quickly if he's just mugged for his second stage and isn't good at reg switches. The OOA diver taking the alternate isn't really practical, since there's usually less than a foot of available hose on it and it won't rotate forward enough to use.

OTOH, I never had a lot of confidence that a real OOA diver would actually go through the process of signaling they're OOA and asking to share and giving the donor time to do a reg switch/clear. Just taking the reg seems much more efficient, although it does mean that the donor (possibly unaware of what's going on) needs to be ready to switch to his alternate at any moment.

I can't decide if it's good or bad or just a reflection of reality, but thanks for the explanation.

That is the reason that BSAC requires that its instructors teach having the OOA diver take the alternate from the donor rather than having the donor provide it. PADI allows its instructors to choose which way they teach it.

Every PADI instructor I know tells students that each situation is possible, and this is something they should discuss with a buddy ahead of time. They should practice it with a regular buddy.

I show all three alternate air system my students may encounter while we are in the classroom and explain how each works. In the pool, we talk about what might happen during a real OOA situation. What I tell them is that it doesn't matter what you have practiced in the past, the person who determines what will happen is the OOA diver. When working in a traditional golden triangle setup, I tell them that they have three possibilities:
1. The OOA diver will reach for the alternate, with or without signalling. In that case, get out of the way so that you aren't fighting over it. Then complete the proper process.
2. The OOA diver will signal you and then look at you, waiting for some help. In that case, donate the alternate and complete the process.
3. The OOA diver will grab for your primary regulator, usually without signalling. In that case, spit it out, take your alternate, and then sort things out once the panic is over. I have (incredibly) heard of instructors teaching students to shield their primaries in such a situation to prevent the OOA diver from taking it. I don't think an OOA situation with a panicked diver is a good time to start a fight.

 

[divergirl6]

In my PADI OW course I was taught that the donor hands the OOA their alternate second stage and that after you signal you wait for it to be handed to you. However, I recently started diving with a buddy who has a 7 foot hose and octo and told me that if I was OOA I should just snatch the reg from his mouth and he will then breathe from his octo. IMO, it just seems to be a matter of who you're with and what your instincts are.

divergirl