Doing It Prejudiced

[RichLockyer]

I don't smoke (never have), so take that as my perspective on this...

I used to... 4 packs a day when I worked retail in the days that smoking was allowed in stores. 2 packs a day after I changed industries.
Between the two, I smoked for nearly 20 years. I quit cold-turkey without the patch or gum.

[1] Smoke how much? 2-3 cig's a day - or 1+ packs? Where's the line drawn

One cig causes a 4-hour paralysis of the cilia in the respiratory tract, preventing the proper clearing of mucous and other contaminants, so I would say that ANY smoking would predispose a diver to increased risk for AGE or Pheumothorax. Nicotine is a stimulant, and a vasoconstrictor. This could predispose a diver to OxTox.
It could be argued that the chain smoker may be better equipped to deal with this, as his body has slowed it's metabolism to accept and normalize the effects of nicotine. This is the root to the physical addiction, and the reason that smokers tend to gain weight when they quit, even if they do NOT substitute food for the cig.
The guy who only has one or two a day feels a much stronger effect.

[2] Does smoking change the DIR dive philosophy (hey, I don't know - I'm not DIR)?

DIR is a wholistic system. The body and brain are key pieces of equipment. Either functioning at less than peak efficiency is no different than diving with a detuned regulator.

[3] If you want to dive DIR, why do you beleive you have to have their endorsement (is it just an "in" thing to do)?

If you want to dive DIR, truly DIR, you have to get the training through GUE. Other organizations teach very good programs that are extremely close to DIR, but due to the wholistic nature, nobody is going to be able to cover ALL of the bases.
That said... who cares about the label. I really don't. I dive a DIR rig, and I hold MOSTLY to the DIR principles, but not to all of them. The important thing is that I understand the potential weaknesses and problems with the areas where I am not DIR, and I can accept the fact that a problem in one of these areas may escalate and cause an accident.

[4] Does the smoking prohabition also apply to other physical problems that are not in control of the DIR candidate?

Touchy subject. I presume you are speaking of a physical handicap of some sort.
First... I have seen some handicapped individuals perform some very impressive feats. Those individuals are few and far between.
If a person is capable of functioning within a unified team and able to master the basic skills, they I would have to say that they would be accepted.
Ask yourself, if the dookie hits the fan, would you want to be the other half of a team that included someone with a physical handicap that prevented them from executing a rescue? My buddy had better be able to drag my unconscious butt back to the boat, get me out of my gear, and get me back on board, or drag me back up the beach.

We must face the fact that physical handicaps are not unlike mental handicaps. At some point, the handicap reaches a degree that it will prevent the person from performing various activities. The truly dangerous people are those who attempt to overcome handicaps without applying common sense, especially when their participation can endanger others.

[5] Why does anyone care that much about the requirements for some self-proclaimed "we're the best" club? If you want it that bad, follow thier rules. If not, don't sweat it.

[6] Do you beleive that there has always been one best way? What did we do before DIR? Is a label or philosophy the way to perfection?

It's not a "self proclaimed we're the best club". It is a solid and valid system of diving that was developed over the years by a particular group of individuals who were doing some very impressive work on deep, demanding dives.
The system evolved through a process of accident analysis... Wow, Tony got bent. What caused that? Well, what did he do differently from the rest of the team? Oh, okay, we'll establish that what the rest of the team did is "right" and what Tony did was "wrong".
Many things are obvious, and date back to the beginnings of the sport. Many things are more detail oriented.
Many things are already in the basic OW manuals, but are glossed over by instructors.

 

[jhelmuth]

One cig causes a 4-hour paralysis of the cilia in the respiratory tract, preventing the proper clearing of mucous and other contaminants, so I would say that ANY smoking would predispose a diver to increased risk for AGE or Pheumothorax. Nicotine is a stimulant, and a vasoconstrictor. This could predispose a diver to OxTox.
It could be argued that the chain smoker may be better equipped to deal with this, as his body has slowed it's metabolism to accept and normalize the effects of nicotine. This is the root to the physical addiction, and the reason that smokers tend to gain weight when they quit, even if they do NOT substitute food for the cig.
The guy who only has one or two a day feels a much stronger effect.

No offense meant Rich, but Alcohol is imparing as well. Drinking and diving are also a no-no. If a person wants to enjoy a butt after a dive - that their choice (but I just don't see how they can actuallt enjoy it - yeesh!)

It's not a "self proclaimed we're the best club". It is a solid and valid system of diving that was developed over the years by a particular group of individuals who were doing some very impressive work on deep, demanding dives.
The system evolved through a process of accident analysis... Wow, Tony got bent. What caused that? Well, what did he do differently from the rest of the team? Oh, okay, we'll establish that what the rest of the team did is "right" and what Tony did was "wrong".

But what Tony (in this case) did may have not caused the problem (albeit it likely did) - we don't fully know what causes some to get bent and other to not. My apologies for putting it so crassly. My point is that you are either DIR or not. You even admit that you do not follow DIR correctly. But I bet you are one helluva diver and are "doing it right" (even if you don't always adhear to every detail).


Rich,

take a look at what I'm saying in #180. Please let me know what you feel I'm saying wrong. I respect your views, opinion and I know that you are more knowledgable than I.

 

[RichLockyer]

Clearly the recreational drinker is no more right on that drug than is the smoker with niccoteen (sp?).

The impact of limited quantities of alcohol on the body is far less than that of nicotine.
Alcohol has two primary impacts, dehydration and mental impairment
Dehydration can be compensated for with additional intake of fluids (I personally drink between 1 and 2 gallons of water every day). Mental impairment passes within an hour or two.
If you are drinking to the point that you are hung over, then you are drinking in excess, which would not be DIR.
Likewise, one should not dive while under the influence.

I don't like drugs - period. But I can't say that I agree. Moderate use is "recreational" to me by defintion.

Any drug use has side effects that are longer lasting and farther reaching than alcohol. Many prescription medications are contraindicated for diving... basically, any prescription drug that includes the "do not drive" label should not be taken while diving. Now look at the common "recreational" drugs... weed, speed, etc... they are either stimulants (back to the nicotine category again) or depressants (do not drive).
There have even been studies that indicate that Dramamine can have a serious impact enhancing the onset of narcosis.

The basic fact is that most LEGAL drugs have not been tested for their effect under hyperbaric conditions. Illegal drugs have obviously not been tested.

wrong. So are you if you think clearly about the ambiguousness of you arguments (and I don't mean that in any unkind way). In the end, I think Kim is silly for caring so much about the DIR club.

Not trying to be ambiguous... just realistic.
As far as Kim caring about the "DIR club", he's not being silly, because he doesn't care about joining a club.
From the start, he indicated that he believed that GUE could offer superior training. That's not silly to want the best, and few could argue that he wasn't right. That's not to say that every other training agency is screwed up, they're not, and you CAN get quality training from other agencies.
It just happens that th agency that he (and others) happened to feel offered the best training also has a prohibition against smoking.

 

[jhelmuth]

Rich,

I still think you're splitting hairs... "limited quantities" are probably OK for any drug once the effect has worn off. And, used after a dive, is not going to be a factor in the dive itself. I just can't easily move from my position that one man's habit is another mans evil - it all a matter of perspective, but in the end neither are right.

 

[popje]

You can drink, but not to excess. I've enjoyed a few beers with more than one GUE instructor. I've yet to witness one have more that 2 or 3 drinks.
I've also had dinner with GUE instructors who were hardcore vegan and drank only water.

Yes, and I've shared a few (rather loose usage of the term "few") bottles of wine and a carton of cigarettes (read carton, not pack...) and oh, not to forget the bottle of Absolute downed by a delightful GUE, DIR cave diver. And he was cute too... usually stumbling to sleep at the time everyone else was getting up to catch a dawn dive...

 

[pipedope]

The impact of limited quantities of alcohol on the body is far less than that of nicotine.
Alcohol has two primary impacts, dehydration and mental impairment
Dehydration can be compensated for with additional intake of fluids (I personally drink between 1 and 2 gallons of water every day). Mental impairment passes within an hour or two.
If you are drinking to the point that you are hung over, then you are drinking in excess, which would not be DIR.

I gotta throw the bulls**t flag on this one.

Where do you get the idea that the mental impairment of alcohol passes within an hour or two? From my experience and studies it lasts far longer, like on the order of a day or more.

Funny, ONE smoke is excessive but there is no real limit on alcohol.

 

[RichLockyer]

Where do you get the idea that the mental impairment of alcohol passes within an hour or two? From my experience and studies it lasts far longer, like on the order of a day or more.

From one or two drinks? What are you drinking?

Funny, ONE smoke is excessive but there is no real limit on alcohol.

I didn't say that there was no limit on alcohol. I said that there's not a problem with a couple of drinks, as in with a meal or a similar situation.
I specifically said that it is NOT acceptable to drink to the point that you are hung over the next day, or to drink to the point of serious impairment on a regular basis.

 

[Mako Mark]

I used to... 4 packs a day when I worked retail in the days that smoking was allowed in stores. 2 packs a day after I changed industries.
Between the two, I smoked for nearly 20 years. I quit cold-turkey without the patch or gum. .

Wow, that is a lot of cigs to give up cold turkey Rich, I am sure that if you have any advice on how to do that, there may be people on the board that would apreciate it. Including the original poster.

I dive a DIR rig, and I hold MOSTLY to the DIR principles, but not to all of them. .

Out of interest, what DIR principles do you NOT hold to, and is there any particular reason?

 

[RichLockyer]

Wow, that is a lot of cigs to give up cold turkey Rich, I am sure that if you have any advice on how to do that, there may be people on the board that would apreciate it. Including the original poster.

At the time I quit, I was running between 1 and 2 packs a day. I had just returned from a business trip to Grand Cayman where I had done four resort course dives. The bug bit me, and I had literally been off the plane from my return trip for 3 hours and I stopped by Sport Chalet and signed up for OW.
I told my buddy (who has been diving since '78) that I was finally getting certified, and he said "Great, but I won't dive with you as long as you smoke"

I looked at the carton on my desk, and figured "Well, if I don't buy anymore I can't smoke anymore"... so I didn't buy anymore and finished that carton the next evening. Two days later I pulled one out of the ashtray and re-lit the last 1/4", and that was it.
I found that while driving (I run over 40k/year), I would frequently reach for my pocket. I used Altoids to help with the cravings, and I did gain about 10 pounds over the next year.

It took about 2 years before I got to the point that I no longer had ANY cravings. As far as my weight, a little over a year ago I made some dietary adjustments and was able to get back down to 210, but couldn't progress beyond that and spent nearly a year flopping between 210 and 205.

Last April, I joined a gym, but this time, worked in 4 sessions with a trainer and nutritionist. A properly balanced diet (no Atkins or South Beach BS), combined with moderate cardio and weight training every other day has brought me down to 185. My blood pressure has dropped from 143/93 to 115/73, and my resting pulse is now around 60, where it was around 90.

Out of interest, what DIR principles do you NOT hold to, and is there any particular reason?

Computers rot your brain, and mine is too rotted do run the calcs manually

Actually, a part of it is my rule #1 violation. My buddy isn't a "stroke" by the pure definition, but he's not as sold on DIR as I am for recreational diving. Lacking any kind of trimix cert, we both dive nitrox or air below 100ft (sticking to a 1.4mod and using EAN32 whenever possible).
We frequently "dead boat" with no surface support (never planned deco dives).
We're not paranoid about keeping the Suuntos out of deco (don't they go into deco as soon as you get them wet?)

 

[Mako Mark]

Thanks for sharing Rich, that was the best post I have seen on this entire thread. I hope Kim gets to read it.

If anyone on the board gets inspired by this and decides that if Rich can quit, so can they LET US KNOW...