Does it make sense to enroll in a Divemaster course with no intention to work with?

[Diving Dubai]

Doing a DM isn’t like doing any other course in scuba. It’s like a mini-apprenticeship to the dive shop. Most skills learned aren’t specifically related to safety nor in-water dive skills.

In "Theory" You should be able to take a student, and just fine tune their skills to demonstration level, introduce leadership teaching skills. And in Theory it should be possible to go through the course in 10 days.

In practice it's another thing. Most candidates require lots o remedial work to get them to the entry level

I feel that it takes 3 months for a candidate to develop the leadership skills - especially the 6th sense. When people bang on about CMAS 3* - I remind them its club diving so you know each divers abilities. Not so when its customers off the street

My DM's were taught the carry out the skills circuit while neutral (when practicable) This is in a pool with max 6' not on some platform at 15'

Get a good instructor and a DM course can be incredibly valuable especially with the practical skills that are refine. But like any course the end result is only as good as the instructor and afterwards the candidates' desire to maintain their skills

In my time I've had quite a few "tech" divers on the boat whose fundamental skills were appalling.

With regard to Rescue. I prefer the candidates to have reached a level where they can sort themselves out in the water without becoming flustered. We would try only to run it with a group of candidates so that we run all sorts of scenarios to get them the best learning opportunities

But for those wanting to get their DM in 2 weeks - forget it you'll learn nothing. I hold them in the same disdain as instructors who pay for their 1st 25 certs to get MSDT

 

[Storker]

You can, but its not the same thing.
A good DM will have a safety plan.

Over here on the right side of the pond we have this thing called club diving. As, in, non-commercial clubs.

Every club dive has a dive leader. The dive leader should as a minimum be able to check certs to ensure that every member is formally qualified for the dive, and ensure that # heads surfacing = # heads descending, otherwise call emergency services (and we have written procedures for that. Just recite the procedure verbatim, and you've done your job).

Then there's the dive leader cert AKA CMAS 3*. It qualifies you formally as a dive leader (and as assistant instructor if you pay your insurance) and fulfills the ISO standard for divemaster/dive leader, just as PADI's DM does. And it has a few other bells and whistles as well. Being geared towards non-com club diving it has nothing to to with "going pro", but it's a very worthwhile cert to take. It includes - among many other things - working out a safety plan and surveying a dive site to be able to provide a good site briefing. It also qualifies you for "deep diving" (40m where I live, 1.6 bar pPO2 on air in other European countries) and light backgas deco.

If a CMAS 3* cert holder doesn't have some sort of a safety plan (for any dive; their own or one they're leading), they don't deserve their cert.

 

[Storker]

DM Cert is great if you want to be a working DM. I don't so have no interest in the DM cert.

If you dive independently (that is, without a DM from your commercial dive op to hold your hand under water), dive leadership skills are quite valuable. Even in an independent buddy pair.

My CMAS 3* cert (Euro non-com DM) is perhaps the most valuable cert I've ever taken. And I have a day job which I'm not going to quit.

 

[Blackcrusader]

If you dive independently (that is, without a DM from your commercial dive op to hold your hand under water), dive leadership skills are quite valuable. Even in an independent buddy pair.

My CMAS 3* cert (Euro non-com DM) is perhaps the most valuable cert I've ever taken. And I have a day job which I'm not going to quit.

You may recall I dived in a BSAC club when I did my BSAC sports diving. Also my buddy I am diving with and planning the dives for, he is an instructor that also holds TDI ANDP. So I am sure we will be fine. We also dive using guides at times and it's not because we need them to hold our hands under water. We may even plan some light back gas deco dives. Diving without guides as the dive ops often have time limits on dives and we prefer to avoid that at times.

 

[TMHeimer]

Oh so you think other divers cannot plan a dive and have a safety plan because they don't have a DM cert ? Any good diver planning a dive takes these things into account.

Part of the rescue course was to map out dive sites, know how to contact emergency services, to know where the chambers were and how to contact them and DAN or the divers other insurance. Were you not taught these things in your rescue course?

The shore dives I will be on with my dive buddy we will only be doing max 30m dives on nitrox in Bali. Doubtful we will get a DCS hit staying within NDL times and thanks for your concern.

In the BSAC club I dived one diver did the dive plan and others followed that plan. So you had instructors being led by sports divers on deco dives. These are not training sessions just dives. There was no ego over who had the highest certification. That nominated diver could call the dive before it even started. I know as I did so on a dive I had planned as the currents were too strong for my liking on a wreck dive once we reached the dive site.

Do you believe that the thousands of people that plan private dives together need a DM? That is pretty much nonsense.

You do not need a DM cert to be trained on how to manage risks. This is done in other courses.

Any diver planning a dive can find out where there are chambers and medical facilities. In Lombok where I will be doing dives to 40m in fast drift currents you are far far away from a chamber. O2 on the boat of course. But those dives with a dive center as I don't have a boat lol

I was also going to point out what you said about others besides DMs being able to do all the safety things that DMs do, especially if they are Rescue certified (but not even necessarily that). Having said that, I would think having a certified DM along as a buddy or leader raises chances that you will be in safe hands should something go wrong. Similar to being safer with any buddy than solo, though that's not always the case either.
I disagree with him on being a DM paying for itself in divetime & opportunities. Being a DM should pay for itself in SALARY, period. I know that's far from the norm, and who's fault is that?

 

[Blackcrusader]

I would think having a certified DM along as a buddy or leader raises chances that you will be in safe hands should something go wrong.

Yet we have a forum member that rushed from OW zero dives to holding a DM cert with almost the minimum number of dives possible to get his DM cert which he got from a 2 week vacation dive. Haven't heard from that member for awhile and missing his misadventures.
He hasn't done night dives, no deco experience or training. Maybe has a hundred dives by now.

There are some dive sites this DM might not be allowed to dive where I am diving this year. Extremely fast current dives including down currents. Now if he joined our dives I am not sure how much safer I would be feeling cause he has a DM Cert.
All things aside, I might take my thousands of dives and experience diving in all sorts of conditions ( except dry suit cold water ) and feel comfortable that I have the experience to deal with incidents that may arise.

In fact on the dives we are doing that DM would be the one needing the guidance of experienced dive partners.

Yes a DM is great to dive with but so are other experienced divers who are not DM's.

 

[Fin kicker]

One of the advantages, I found as a DM was access to employment as an underwater Videographer.
The DM cert was the minimum needed to get on the boat as crew.

I made no money as a DM, and I have never worked commercially purely in DM mode. But, the cert provided other opportunities.

I made money as a cameraman.

So, personally I saw the DM as a string to my bow to help me get onboard boats.

If you're in your early 20s and travelling, the use case justification for this type of investment may be different, than for a local thinking of taking the certification at their local shop without the want to work commercially.

It worked out for me.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yet we have a forum member that rushed from OW zero dives to holding a DM cert with almost the minimum number of dives possible to get his DM cert which he got from a 2 week vacation dive. Haven't heard from that member for awhile and missing his misadventures.
He hasn't done night dives, no deco experience or training. Maybe has a hundred dives by now.

There are some dive sites this DM might not be allowed to dive where I am diving this year. Extremely fast current dives including down currents. Now if he joined our dives I am not sure how much safer I would be feeling cause he has a DM Cert.
All things aside, I might take my thousands of dives and experience diving in all sorts of conditions ( except dry suit cold water ) and feel comfortable that I have the experience to deal with incidents that may arise.

In fact on the dives we are doing that DM would be the one needing the guidance of experienced dive partners.

Yes a DM is great to dive with but so are other experienced divers who are not DM's.

Exactly my point. I would be one of those DMs with no deco training for one thing and never met a down current (though been in some rough regular ones). So yes, it all depends on the situation. If it's a 60 foot dive off Nova Scotia I think a dive buddy would probably be safe enough with either of us. If neither of us are cert. cave divers we would be foolish to lead someone there. Same thing as musicians vs. music teachers.
Teachers have been taught to teach (like a DM, instructor) and musicians taught to play (Cave diver). But, you can absolutely learn a lot more on your instrument from a pro who plays it and teaches you privately than from your school band director. Or you can be lucky in this scenario and run into me who does both....analogy stopped before last statement.

 

[Wibble]

Where is the competence line drawn?

A DiveMaster that qualified through working in a dive shop may have competence in leading novices using ‘standard' recreational kit. Maybe some generic planning skills.

They certainly do not have competence over other equipment configurations nor diving procedures outside of their trained and fully experienced competence levels. Examples: twinset diving, solo diving, sidemount, deep, decompression, mixed gasses, team diving, rebreathers.

 

[TMHeimer]

Where is the competence line drawn?

A DiveMaster that qualified through working in a dive shop may have competence in leading novices using ‘standard' recreational kit. Maybe some generic planning skills.

They certainly do not have competence over other equipment configurations nor diving procedures outside of their trained and fully experienced competence levels. Examples: twinset diving, solo diving, sidemount, deep, decompression, mixed gasses, team diving, rebreathers.

That's sort of what we've been saying. And there are some solo divers who have not used rebreathers who are both DMs and not Dms. There are some DMs who are great assistants on OW courses and relate to students well and some Cave divers who wouldn't have a clue about that. And, some DMs doing that who really suck at it. I think we all agree.