Doc Deep dies during dive.

[The Chairman]

It's my oh-so-humble albeit unpopular opinion, that cave diving certifications should be done only by NSS-CDS or GUE instructors. The "we can teach everything" approach utilized by many of the agencies horning in on this is dangerously lax by comparison. I'm not affiliated with NSS-CDS nor GUE, but the difference in how you become an instructor for them is night and day compared to the rest. To whit, I know of three instructors who were able to teach cave for other agencies FAIL in becoming an NSS-CDS instructor. Let that sink in. There are probably more, and in all three cases NSS-CDS made the right decision as far as I'm concerned. Humorously, all three of those instructors blamed NSS-CDS for their own shortcomings.

Can you learn from a cheap/crappy instructor? Sure. But why? If your goal is to get the plastic, then reset your goals. You should train for diving caves and even overhead like your life depends on it.

 

[kammel78]

I have seen some panic attacks in really experienced divers.

Off topic, but we need to stop perpetuating the myth that panic attacks have something to do with someone's experience/mental "toughness"/etc. Especially in diving, physiological response to eleveated CO2 levels is usually the culprit.

 

[The Chairman]

Especially in diving, physiological response to eleveated CO2 levels is usually the culprit.

Most everyone thinks they'll never panic, until they do. You just can't know and the "it'll never be me" syndrome is little protection when it hits.

 

[Germie]

I absolutely don't agree about only 1 or 2 agencies for teaching. First, there are caves outside of Florida. Second there was or still is an agency nacd called that found also his basics in Florida, did they do bad work in the past before the problems started? Ok, now more serious, you see that a lot of Mexican divers think they invented cave diving, the same with divers from Florida and the same with divers from France.

If you look back in the history of cavediving, you see that things started parallel, so there was exploring in Florida, there was also exploring in Europe and there was exploring in Mexico. But all did it their own way because the caves are also different. The overhead and water are the same, but the rest can be different. Later things came together, but some things never will come together. For example the sump diving in the UK or France. If you have been only in Florida, you will absolutely have no idea about what this kind of diving is. If you only dove in Mexico, you will never have felt the strong currents in Florida. If you have only been diving in Europe, you will never have seen really complex caves (but complex mines yes). We have one more or less complex cave in the south of France, Font Estramar, but diving is officially forbidden there sadly. I have been there when it was not closed. But most other caves here are quite easy with 'complex' navigation.
But what about mines? Europe has quite a lot of mines. And they can be very complex (deep, cold, lot of sidetunnels).

I think teaching has nothing to do with the agency. But it would not be a bad idea to put in standards that divers have been in different regions and caves before doing an instructor course. But this can also be in Europe only for example. We have more than only the Lot region in France with caves. We have mines, we have the Jura, the Doubs, Spain, Italy, etc. I learned cavediving in Thailand. The caves I dove in were dry caves before 1982. Then they flooded them on purpose. So the complete structure was known before they were under water. I dove in Europe in caves and mines.
I did one of my cave instructor courses in Europe. And for my ccr cave instructor course I went to Florida. I did it with Tom Mount, also not an unknown person in cave diving. I am a diver who went from twinset to ccr to sidemount and now also do some sumpdiving with sometimes climbing.
But there are also cave divers and cave instructors who came from speleology and then moved into sumpdiving and now teach cave diving to only divers. That is a different approach and does not fit in a lot of agencies.

Also things that work in France and do not harm the environment will harm in Mexico. Steel sidemounts vs ali sidemounts. What is better? In Europe you also see steel tanks for sidemount or bailout with floats on it to compensate the negative cylinders. Is that wrong? That is never seen in GUE, but it is not wrong.

Is it wrong to do a cave course directly in ccr or sidemount? Not all agencies allow this, but I think it is not wrong.

And also nss cds and gue teach trimix/ccr/sidemount. So they also teach all.
I think 1 thing that has improved in the last 10 years is that there is more knowledge easy available due to internet. Divers can discuss things and divers sometimes are more open to mistakes they made in the past.

And remember, there are no statistics that 1 agency has more accidents than another agency. As all divers have to deal with the same physics, and water can kill all over the world, there is no worst or best. The discussion to improve things is always good and is not agency dependent.

And diving can be dangerous, like riding a horse or driving a car, so accidents will happen. We can discuss how to avoid stupid accidents, but it will be impossible to avoid all accidents. Divers are still humans.

About panic:
Panic can always happen, also the instructor is human and can get into panic. Some people are more prone to panic than others. But getting experience lowers the risk of panic. That means you still need to train or improve yourself, even if you have already a lot of experience.

 

[kammel78]

And remember, there are no statistics that 1 agency has more accidents than another agency. As all divers have to deal with the same physics, and water can kill all over the world, there is no worst or best. The discussion to improve things is always good and is not agency dependent.

About panic:
Panic can always happen, also the instructor is human and can get into panic. Some people are more prone to panic than others. But getting experience lowers the risk of panic. That means you still need to train or improve yourself, even if you have already a lot of experience.

This is demonstrably incorrect. Look at lawsuits even accounting for market share.

Panic - please understand that we understand so much more about panic than we used to. There's no "magic" going on here, it's a physiological response to elevated CO2 levels. See What’s All the Fuss about CO2 in Breathing Gas? - Shearwater Research for a good summation.

What you refer to as "some people are more prone" is simply individual sensitivity to CO2 (which can actually be hereditary). Some people have higher levels of CO2 tolerance, some lower, but there's no mystery to it, it's science. They've tested people in chambers with CO2 and demonstrated this effect.

Add in, increased work on the lungs by simple immersion, then added work (often by divers overweighted and without proper trim and propulsion) or by high current/flow, multiplied by our blind ignorance of basic gas density guidelines, and throw in CCR added WOB issues and divers are ripe for CO2 issues.

 

[JohnN]

Most everyone thinks they'll never panic, until they do. You just can't know and the "it'll never be me" syndrome is little protection when it hits.

As Mike Tyson so elegantly put it : “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

 

[Germie]

But even it is CO2 that makes you panic, it is a fact that in the same circumstances some people will not panic and others do. With training you can get more resistance against panic.

Doing really deep dives or extreme cave dives will bring some stress. Stress that is needed to bring the dive to an good end. To think to easy about things will put you also into danger. But if just some positive stress turns into a negative feeling, the way down to panic is not long. So you must try to become aware of signals that mean negative stress or the start of panic.

 

[The Chairman]

First, there are caves outside of Florida.

Both NSS-CDS and GUE have instructors around the world.

As I said, and you have demonstrated, it's an unpopular opinion, but one I'll stick to. In your previous post, you laid the groundwork for why I'm correct in my assertion and even inspired my post. Am I being elitist? No, and it's why I don't teach cavern or cave though I could have through other agencies. I recognize excellence and have no qualms looking for that in my instructors. There are instructors in both NSS-CDS and GUE I would not recommend, but they are rare and ancient. It's OK for you to do you. I'll stick with doing what's best for me.

 

[The Chairman]

With training you can get more resistance against panic.

I don't think this is true. There is no way to inure yourself from panic. Training can open your eyes to how to avoid situations that lead to panic, but ol' man Murphy is an evil and sneaky sumbitch. He'll hit you when you least expect it with more than you think is possible.

 

[kammel78]

But even it is CO2 that makes you panic, it is a fact that in the same circumstances some people will not panic and others do. With training you can get more resistance against panic.

Doing really deep dives or extreme cave dives will bring some stress. Stress that is needed to bring the dive to an good end. To think to easy about things will put you also into danger. But if just some positive stress turns into a negative feeling, the way down to panic is not long. So you must try to become aware of signals that mean negative stress or the start of panic.

Each person has a different level of CO2 tolerance similar to different people have different tolerances for alcohol. You can't get "resistance" against the physiological effects of CO2 anymore than you can get resistance against alcohol. You can potentially increase your tolerance through exposure and you can condition yourself to recognize and cope with the effects, but you're not "training out" the effects.