Sure, but he gave us almost no information, so i used what was available.
If he HAD been OK, on the tables, even less chance for DCS.
As is, rotator cuff sounds more likely!
Do you think this could be DCS?
- Thread starter Bazzathemammoth
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If he HAD been OK, on the tables, even less chance for DCS.
As is, rotator cuff sounds more likely!
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Sorry, no one suggests using average depths with tables.
We are just guessing in the dark. What's your guess?
Fatigue? No idea. I'm not the doctor, you are.
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Right. Why are you so fixated on tables? He had a conservative computer and did not exceed NDL. Does that rule out DCS, of course not. We do not know all of his other risk factors. Was this DCS then, and now explains his chronic symptoms, most likely not.
Maybe he has polymyalgia rheumatica, this is probably more likely than DCS, and is treatable. As I suggested, he should see his physician.
Diagnosing DCS while you are an expert in face-to-face contact with the possible victim can be tough. In a thread a few years ago, I mentioned how my carpal tunnel syndrome symptoms, which frequently cropped up after dive days, were very much like DCS symptoms, and Dr. Simon Mitchell, who has treated many a DCS victim himself, said he believed many a carpal tunnel problem has been treated as DCS over the years. There was a DAN document posted on a thread here about 10 years ago that said spinal stenosis often displays symptoms mistaken for DCS, even by experts. Shoulder pain is indeed a symptom, but many things cause shoulder pain. Fatigue is a symptom, but the OP said he was always fatigued on those days.
When I had DCS, shoulder pain and fatigue were symptoms, but it was no typical shoulder pain, and it was no typical fatigue. I could not lift the bowl of green beans off the table at dinner, and I had an overwhelming need to take a nap, something I absolutely never do. After foolishly treating myself with oxygen and getting good shoulder relief and relief of the fatigue, I finally went to a chamber (with help from Duke Dive Medicine), and the symptoms that put me in the chamber were neither of the above. It was the slight dizzy feeling, like I was coming down with the flu, that concerned the doctor. By the time I got in the chamber, my shoulder was mostly OK.
To me, the big problem here is that a month has passed. I am pretty sure that even if a doctor decides he had had DCS, there will be no point in treatment that far after the fact. Of course, I am not a physician of any kind, let alone an expert in hyperbaric medicine, so the OP may want to make the call to DAN just to be sure.
When I had DCS, shoulder pain and fatigue were symptoms, but it was no typical shoulder pain, and it was no typical fatigue. I could not lift the bowl of green beans off the table at dinner, and I had an overwhelming need to take a nap, something I absolutely never do. After foolishly treating myself with oxygen and getting good shoulder relief and relief of the fatigue, I finally went to a chamber (with help from Duke Dive Medicine), and the symptoms that put me in the chamber were neither of the above. It was the slight dizzy feeling, like I was coming down with the flu, that concerned the doctor. By the time I got in the chamber, my shoulder was mostly OK.
To me, the big problem here is that a month has passed. I am pretty sure that even if a doctor decides he had had DCS, there will be no point in treatment that far after the fact. Of course, I am not a physician of any kind, let alone an expert in hyperbaric medicine, so the OP may want to make the call to DAN just to be sure.
LOL. OK, let's try this again. I looked at tables to see if his dives were on them. If they had been, DCS would have been even less likely. His dives went off the tables. OK, then you started asking about tables, and mentioning average depth, etc. I commented -- not really for you but for others possibly reading, do NOT use average depth with tables. You keep asking about tables. I'm not sure I'm the one fixated on tables!
It is kinda funny how this line of query went astray, but from my POV I think it did so because you called the dived aggressive.
I know I was thinking "That's not an aggressive dive!" "I do dives like that several times a week"
But I can see that if you were just using tables it was "off the charts"
Makes me glad for our modern conveniences (Dive Computer)
hammet
Contributor
"Grinding" winches can be hell on the shoulders. It's a circular type of motion that can put a lot of strain on the rotator cuff if you're not used to it. Plus the stance you take over a winch can be awkward which can cause added strain in the wrong muscles and joints.
Lots of huge forces involved in sailing which you have to learn how to use mechanical advantage ... to your advantage.
Broke this winch handle trimming the mainsail on my boat last week...
Lots of huge forces involved in sailing which you have to learn how to use mechanical advantage ... to your advantage.
Broke this winch handle trimming the mainsail on my boat last week...
OP
Bazzathemammoth
Contributor
Hi again
Thanks for all the replies. There is some interesting information in there. A few points and questions have been raised and I would like to respond to them. I am feeling a little foolish because I think I have figured out what happened and it ain't DCS. I'll save that for the end.
Why I didn't do something straight away:
I didn't think it was that bad and didn't link it to DCS, I just thought that I must have over exerted myself. My life has been pretty full-on lately.
On computer vs tables:
I recently converted from tables to a computer and one of the first things I did when I bought the computer was comparing it to the standard PADI tables. On a square profile dive to 30M the tables had 25% more NDL time (20m vs 16min). I am convinced that if I calculated this day's dives on tables as multi-level dives that it would have been fine.
On dive aggression:
I have always been paranoid about getting the bends and so I keep a close eye on my NDL's and depth. On the 1st dive, I hung around the 20m mark until I had 10 min to NDL at which stage I showed this to my dive buddy and we began slowly ascending to the top of the reef at 10m. Once we were there the NDL got quite big and I was having a good look around. Unfortunately, my dive buddy was too cold so we ascended to our safety stop shortly after and finished the dive from there with plenty of gas and NDL. The second dive was similar (a bit less NDL at depth at the time of ascent, maybe 8 min) and was thumbed for the same reason again.
What I think happened:
Until posting this I had forgotten about the predive drama that we had before dive 1. Our dive site was a completely exposed reef approximately 10NM offshore. We first got dropped off the boat in the wrong spot, and my boatman tried to tow us to the site. I have done this plenty of times when freediving, but never before on scuba. The extra drag from the scuba gear made holding on a seriously strenuous effort and ultimately made it impossible for the boat to turn us towards the reef. We got back on the boat and motored to the site and I didn't think anything of it at the time.
Looking back I think I was just too preoccupied to notice that my shoulders were giving me grief and that I had probably pulled some muscles while being towed behind the boat. Years ago I had shoulder issues from snowboarding that had accompanying fatigue, not sure how that works but I think that is what is going on here.
It has been a good exercise thinking my way through this and I am now far more prepared in the event that myself or my future dive buddy were to get DCS. I now have the NZ dive emergency # in my phone and I think I will be less hesitant to call it if I suspect any problems.
Thanks for all the replies. There is some interesting information in there. A few points and questions have been raised and I would like to respond to them. I am feeling a little foolish because I think I have figured out what happened and it ain't DCS. I'll save that for the end.
Why I didn't do something straight away:
I didn't think it was that bad and didn't link it to DCS, I just thought that I must have over exerted myself. My life has been pretty full-on lately.
On computer vs tables:
I recently converted from tables to a computer and one of the first things I did when I bought the computer was comparing it to the standard PADI tables. On a square profile dive to 30M the tables had 25% more NDL time (20m vs 16min). I am convinced that if I calculated this day's dives on tables as multi-level dives that it would have been fine.
On dive aggression:
I have always been paranoid about getting the bends and so I keep a close eye on my NDL's and depth. On the 1st dive, I hung around the 20m mark until I had 10 min to NDL at which stage I showed this to my dive buddy and we began slowly ascending to the top of the reef at 10m. Once we were there the NDL got quite big and I was having a good look around. Unfortunately, my dive buddy was too cold so we ascended to our safety stop shortly after and finished the dive from there with plenty of gas and NDL. The second dive was similar (a bit less NDL at depth at the time of ascent, maybe 8 min) and was thumbed for the same reason again.
What I think happened:
Until posting this I had forgotten about the predive drama that we had before dive 1. Our dive site was a completely exposed reef approximately 10NM offshore. We first got dropped off the boat in the wrong spot, and my boatman tried to tow us to the site. I have done this plenty of times when freediving, but never before on scuba. The extra drag from the scuba gear made holding on a seriously strenuous effort and ultimately made it impossible for the boat to turn us towards the reef. We got back on the boat and motored to the site and I didn't think anything of it at the time.
Looking back I think I was just too preoccupied to notice that my shoulders were giving me grief and that I had probably pulled some muscles while being towed behind the boat. Years ago I had shoulder issues from snowboarding that had accompanying fatigue, not sure how that works but I think that is what is going on here.
It has been a good exercise thinking my way through this and I am now far more prepared in the event that myself or my future dive buddy were to get DCS. I now have the NZ dive emergency # in my phone and I think I will be less hesitant to call it if I suspect any problems.
scubaozy
Contributor
Imho, average depth is a good indicator of aggressiveness of the dive profile when full profile is not available. His average for second dive is 18m and 37 mins (max 27m), my Suunto stinger gives 52 (padi rdp 56) mins ndl at that depth. If I increase the conservatism to P1 ->39 mins and P2 -> 30mins respectively. Not to mention that diving was done in cold and strenuous conditions (padi adds 4m for this to max depth) and we are talking about the second dive. Obviously this is not how the tables and computers are suppose to be used. Nevertheless, we have to remember that tables and computers are just tools for risk management, so Bazzathemammoth could be closer to his ndl than one might think.
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