do you intervene with cruel nature?

[drbill]

Just a quick note about cats. Free roaming, domestic cats can have a huge, negative impact on natural wildlife. Domestic cats can greatly reduce natural bird populations (migratory species) and mammals too.

As I think you know, Mr. X, we have a bad feral cat problem here on Catalina. Not only do they attack birds, especially our ground-nesting and endemic quail, but also amphibians, reptiles and even our endemic island foxes.

And this doesn't even consider the damage they do to the marine environment. Yes, I know, cats don't like water (unless they're lapping it up from a toilet bowl... ours are salt water toilets here!). However they like tuna and a host of other fish which are caught by the ton to feed them.

Folks who really want to help protect the marine environment might reconsider cats as pets. Much as I loved mine, I have not replaced them.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

Hrmmm... Good points on cats. Here, the coyote population keeps the feral cat population from getting out of control. My kitties only go outside during the day, and most of their time is spent looking for a spot of sunshine. Since keeping the two of them around, the mouse and mole population has decreased dramatically. Ever since one of them got his azz kicked by a gray squirrel, (LOL) he doesn't mess with anything but smaller rodents.

 

[Mr.X]

As I think you know, Mr. X, we have a bad feral cat problem here on Catalina. Not only do they attack birds, especially our ground-nesting and endemic quail, but also amphibians, reptiles and even our endemic island foxes.

And this doesn't even consider the damage they do to the marine environment. Yes, I know, cats don't like water (unless they're lapping it up from a toilet bowl... ours are salt water toilets here!). However they like tuna and a host of other fish which are caught by the ton to feed them.

Folks who really want to help protect the marine environment might reconsider cats as pets. Much as I loved mine, I have not replaced them.

Doc mentions a problem that is huge on the island. Anyone diving or visiting the Casino can witness this problem first hand. At dusk (Doc is this still happening?), the cats used to come out by the droves and you could see them being fed by well intentioned folks. Sadly, these feral cats did/do much to destroy the flora and fauna of a very unique island ecosystem. Plus, these kitties didn't look all that healthy and probably suffered from a variety of cat ailments like feline AIDS etc. Let's remind everyone to keep their fuzz pals in the home!

An interesting fact (with the English cat - PBS) was that the researchers tracked the cat all day long and collected the kills afterward. They were shocked to find what an average cat can do. Our house kitties look innocent enough, but as we all know cats are terrific con artists and do stuff while we're out. Personally Fish-Whisperer, I would love to see a study on cat-whooping squirrels. Sounds like they do more than collect nuts - they kick bu&&.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

It sounds like an awful problem on Catalina. Without natural predators (coyotes, etc.) cats are as bad as rabbits, and nearly as prolific.

Mr.X, my cat had been stalking squirrels. I told him, "Don't do it! They'll whip your azz!" Of course, he didn't listen. One day, I heard all of this commotion outside. I thought one of my cats was in a fight with another cat, so I went running out. I saw this huge tangle of gray fur that sounded like it was possessed. My cat is gray, and so was the squirrel. They were locked in mortal combat, rolling over and over, and my cat was yowling and spitting. The squirrel was hissing and screeching. They rolled over one more time, and my cat leapt 3' into the air, every hair standing straight out, and then he was hellbent for leather to get onto the deck. I looked at him and said, "Pfft... I told you not to mess with those squirrels!" He didn't get scratched up too badly, but his Highness was missing big patches of fur in several places. It was a week before he would venture outside again, and although he watches the squirrels, he doesn't stalk them anymore. LOL

 

[mislav]

I'd intervene if I was in a position to. I don't think there's much I could do to protect someone from a full grown shark though. I like to think that it's what someone would do for me if I was in such an unfavorable position.

Remember stories of dolphins saving people from shark attacks? It seems such a noble thing to do.

And yes, I've also saved and/or relocated worms, snails, turtles, hedgehogs... It feels right and I feel better if I help.

 

[drbill]

Doc mentions a problem that is huge on the island. Anyone diving or visiting the Casino can witness this problem first hand. At dusk (Doc is this still happening?), the cats used to come out by the droves and you could see them being fed by well intentioned folks.

Yep, it is still happening, and of course the folks doing it are well intentioned and don't want to see the cats suffer because their former human owners were insensitive. Mounting an education program on this issue has not been easy due to the attachment people have for these "pets."

I've had 4 cats in my life. Two were feral kittens that were trapped and then raised as domestic pets (both turned into great animals). In my early days on the island I'm sure my first two killed their share of native animals. The last two were kept indoors and only went out on a leash.

 

[Wristshot]

Like NKW5 , I reject your premise. Nature is not cruel. Nature is nature.

We as humans tend to anthropomorphize. Someone else used the phrase "humane". That should not be used when it comes to natural selection and the dining habits of wild animals. Good point made here about how we tend to side with the cute animals.

For every animal we "save" from being eaten by another, we start to starve the other. Some predators seem to "play" with their prey, when in fact it is sometimes a matter of teaching or learning to kill.

Do not intervene.

However, intervening to undo some other previous intervention by humans can be a good thing, like removing a 6-pack plastic. Use some good judgement. Try not to become some animal's meal while trying to save some other animal from becoming a meal.

I do have mixed feelings about animals that feed within the lighted areas of divers lights at night. We are upsetting the balance, but some animals learn to make use of the divers' lights.

Bears and sharks gotta eat too . . .


Wristshot

 

[drbill]

Like NKW5 , I reject your premise. Nature is not cruel. Nature is nature.

We as humans tend to anthropomorphize. Someone else used the phrase "humane". That should not be used when it comes to natural selection and the dining habits of wild animals. Good point made here about how we tend to side with the cute animals.

You're EVIL, Wristshot (just look at his avatar), but very correct!

Some predators seem to "play" with their prey, when in fact it is sometimes a matter of teaching or learning to kill.

I think it's been pretty well shown that there are species which will kill without eating the animal. While we can't say it is for "pleasure" (too anthropomorphic), it may not be a matter of learning since it has been shown in mature adults... unless it is an example of "continuing education!"

 

[Eagle-scuba]

Let the weak be consumed....let nature take its course , as tough as it is...no one saves the cow you eat from you...LOL....Darwin would have agreed ..evolution finds its own path....thru cunsumption of the weak....and the weak are there for a reason...to make the strong.....see ya` under

 

[nerfboy]

So the question posed was to help or not to?

Ever hear the story of the Farmer and the dear? A true story, often told in basic ecology classes. So there was this stable herd of deer living in the mountains been there possibly hundreds of years. Every winter, some of the deer would die of starvation, because the snow covered the grasses. So this farmer decided to “help” the deer. He tossed bails of hay out for the deer to feed on during the winter. Sure enough, he didn’t see the deer die of starvation, and so he continue this for a few winters. Until all of sudden all the deer just disappeared. What happened? Well the deer population shot up, over grazed, destroyed the grasses, so no food and the entire herd was lost. It was decades before that mountain was able to support deer again.

So ask yourself, are you really helping?