Do you dive Side-Mount or Side Slung??

[MSargeant]

I picked up on what a couple of people said here about British sump divers. I think side slung partly comes about when you need a hard attachment point for walking cylinders before refinement for swimming takes precedence. An interesting way to see the progression.

Yeah, effing great big karabiners for some sump diving folk.

Nowadays there are ring bungies, or just have a bolt-snap on a choker around the neck and then sort the bungee out in the water... Or just used an effing great big karabiner.

 

[DevonDiver]

^ Sort of thing makes me cringe.

I can't stop watching that guy's videos on Youtube... it's a train-wreck in every conceivable manner..

People tell me that PADI have a QA department.... I just can't believe it..

 

[JamesK]

I hope I am sidemount! Lol

My only point in this post was to remind me to come back later and read all these long posts so I can reply.

Carry on! Lol

 

[rjack321]

I know here in the UK where "sidemount" was "invented", if you're diving sumps you're mainly clipping a cylinder or 2 to yourself, legging it through a sump and then carrying on walking to the other side, works well and was mentioned above... I guess that's actually side-slung, mainly for utility purposes.

The recent craze of sidemount (the Woody Jasper version) has been seen as a cash cow by training agencies and i do think they're taking it as a literal term, mounting tanks on the sides. With no emphasis placed on profile or trim or having a clean configuration, which saddens me

[video=youtube;biKSFMF3Vv4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biKSFMF3Vv4[/video]

^ Sort of thing makes me cringe.

Devon there is a lot of "zero-to-hero" instructors in the UK, who i think just take it as face value and go from there. There are also quite a few good instructors trained by Steve Martin and Garry Dallas thankfully. I think as the hype around sidemount diving dies down, pursuing training in sidemount will be the same as any form of diving, do research and find the best instructors for the job.

On another note, i know a couple of people who self taught themselves sidemount, and they do a good job of it. Also with the amount of videos online from people such as Steve Bogaerts, Steve Martin, Lamar Hires, Brian Kakuk etc. as well as their websites, people can get a general idea of what "true" sidemount should look like.

O.M.G.
That was PRICELESS!!!! Monkey see monkey do weeeeeeee

 

[MSargeant]

Devon, i couldn't find the video i was after, but its a guy using a hollis sms 100 and its... Its just awful
Good lord there are more videos! Hopefully i don't get face cramp from the cringing...
(Hope i don't sound up-myself/elitist... i don't mean to come across that way.)

 

[Karl_H]

[video=youtube;biKSFMF3Vv4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biKSFMF3Vv4[/video]

^ Sort of thing makes me cringe.

The term "Boracay Style" sidemount springs to mind when I watched this video Although, most variations of Boracay style require the long hose to we wrapped at least twice around the neck (front and back) and there's also a variation where the diver uses the long free diving fins 'for extra power and streamlining'. I've never seen the inverted urchin balancing skill before though, that must be in the advanced course?

I am curious - what types of harnesses do you see being used by these divers?

There's two main offenders for me - huge (and expensive) imported harnesses or a harnesses just set-up wrong for the diving they are being used for. A lot of imported harnesses have way too much lift than is required here - SMS100, Nomad etc. When used with aluminium tanks, and no tank attachment point other than the butt plate door handles, the tanks are still 45+ degrees off trim for the majority of the dive. These kind of harnesses are expensive to find here! It's genrally cheaper to get a smaller harness and pay for a course - hence my argument for that route.

There's also a lot of people out there using Razor style harnesses (which are much more suitable to warm water diving in sidemount) but set-up using tanks which are basically stage bottles, i.e. very long tails, and no forward d-rings for mounting the tanks - back to the same problems with tanks 45 degrees off trim :-(

 

[DevonDiver]

Hope i don't sound up-myself/elitist... i don't mean to come across that way.

Don't worry... I think this easily lays well beyond the realms of snobbishness. Apart from the cringe-factor entertainment, the video is actually a very good resource for highlighting bad diving practices - not just for sidemount or tech... but for Open Water students too. I'd expect better buoyancy/trim from an OW Dive #4 student than this 'tech instructor' demonstrates.

You can forgive some videos that show bad student performances. It's easy to jump to conclusions..and some videos show weaknesses that are still in the process of being rectified in training. I know some instructors are meticulous in editing their videos to prevent online criticism... or only upload videos that are very staged - more advertisement than documentary.

In this case, that isn't the case... the instructor themselves is a role-model for everything done badly.

I was laughing until a single thought knocked the smile off my face.... a product of that individual could one day knock on my door for more advanced tech training...awwwwwww

---------- Post added February 22nd, 2013 at 01:37 PM ----------

It's worth considering training agency direction being given on this also.

Here's what PADI say:

Materials and Equipment – Instructor and Student:
• BCD and harness configured for sidemount diving

Ok.. so what is that configuration?

Here's what they say in the theory section (the only reference I could find in the instructor manual)...

What are common harness and BCD options for sidemount rigs?
B. Sidemount harness and BCD systems
.......
a. Cylinders attach at the hip or over the buttocks on either side (or both), and on the upper chest at armpit level.
b. Most configurations use an elastic system (bungee, tubing, etc.) to hold the tops of the cylinders in place while worn. Some divers also have clips that attach to the chest D-rings.

The wording says "most configurations"... which provides an opt-out for instructors to configure for 'sidemount' using methods typically used for stowing deco tanks... a direct clip from the upper cylinder to the harness d-ring..... i.e. Sidemount Staging.

The vague standards....and lack of specific definition.... allow instructors to run 'sidemount' courses using a slung-deco configuration. It's not in the 'spirit' of the standards... the manual does refer to bungees in the assumption they will be used... but it does not stipulate it.

Sidemount approaches are varied... so it's hard to create a sufficiently broad definition of 'sidemount configuration' to cover ever legitimate option. That said, what IS missing are standards to define the performance outcome. A performance standard along the lines of "primary cylinders must be trimmed - laying consistently in line with the divers' side torso and not hanging below them, or rising above".

Such a standard would enforce the need for instructors to focus on proper cylinder rigging....and likewise focus student perception on the fact that sidemount is a tangible configuration approach that DOES offer the benefits of streamlining and stability.

I wonder how other agencies approach this?

 

[MSargeant]

Good lord! Thats shocking... polluting the system with misinformation wow.
I can't comment on other agencies but i have a friend who instructs for IANTD who is very stern on cylinder trim when teaching sidemount.

I fully agree with you on more.. "specific" standards when i comes to cylinder trim, perhaps a clear distinction between sidemounted and side slung cylinders would also be a good idea? Sort of a picture for each then pointing out the specific differences?

 

[Colliam7]

Apart from the cringe-factor entertainment, the video is actually a very good resource for highlighting bad diving practices - not just for sidemount or tech... but for Open Water students too. I'd expect better buoyancy/trim from an OW Dive #4 student than this 'tech instructor' demonstrates.

I particularly like the idea of stirring up the bottom, to create that wispy, ephemeral image - on shore they would have had to use something like dry ice. It is easier in the water - just swim at a 45 degree angle, close to the bottom.

The wording says "most configurations"... which provides an opt-out for instructors to configure for 'sidemount' using methods typically used for stowing deco tanks... a direct clip from the upper cylinder to the harness d-ring..... i.e. Sidemount Staging. . . . The vague standards....and lack of specific definition.... allow instructors to run 'sidemount' courses using a slung-deco configuration. It's not in the 'spirit' of the standards... the manual does refer to bungees in the assumption they will be used... but it does not stipulate it.

While I agree in principle, I can see why PADI, and any agency for that matter, would hesitate to stipulate to a greater degree. You said it yourself:

Sidemount approaches are varied... so it's hard to create a sufficiently broad definition of 'sidemount configuration' to cover ever legitimate option.

I can see the value of an outcome-based standard as suggested, though.

I wonder how other agencies approach this?

A very good question. I wonder how many agencies offering SM courses have standards even as specific as the ones in the PADI instructor guide? I don't say that to promote PADI or criticize or any agency - I am really curious.

 

[JamesK]

OK, this is a fun thread. I don't have a lot to say at the moment, because I am mainly just enjoying reading everyone's posts.

I do want to say a few things. And you will read and enjoy my rantings.

The videos posted are horrible. SOOOO many things wrong that it scares me. These are tech classes? So in what class is it ok to let the 2nd stage from your deco tank just trail behind you? Why the hell would you squirrel tail a deco tank in this situation anyway? No reason to when you can easily sidemount that deco tank. Oh wait, they don't even have their main gas tanks in trim, so mounting another cylinder would be difficult. Argh.

Another is that AL tanks when used with a buttplate will be out of trim for half of the dive. This is simply untrue as well. You can dive buttplates with AL tanks very easily and not have them ever come out of trim any more then they would with rings on the side. You simply need to use a correct leash length and move them to a forward d-ring when needed. The problem is most people do not do this. They use virtually no leash, or fail to move their cylinders.

Now carry on, I am enjoying this.