Do You Approve Of Quickie Certifications?

[Al Mialkovsky]

It's not a rude question. At least to a guy it's not!!

My wife was 48 years old when she got her OW. She recently did her AOW and will get her divemaster when we return home. While she is older than dirt she is very fit and active. She's a very good cyclist. Plus she hasn't weighed over 95 pounds in her entire life. So maybe that's helped. Plus since we've arrived on Maui a month ago she's logged almost 100 dives.

Diving has been a pretty low impact sport, at least that's the design right? The only injury I've had was recently when I spent an entire dive swiming with a video camera in front of me. I've strained my back and I believe it's because I was swiming "weird" for the entire 50 minute dive.

Yes she carried my gear past the surf for our shore dive this morning so we could dive. Am I lucky or what?

 

[jepuskar]

I took private lessons. Did 2 classroom sessions and 2 confined pool sessions. Total time for this was 2 days. Had no problems with the theory or skills.

Open water dives took 2 days..dives 1-3 one day and dive 4 the following day. No problems....

I think if the student does all the skills required with little or no problems than they should be certified. However, I think what that student does with the c-card is what really matters. They could put it away for 9 months until they go on vacation, or they can get out and practice, practice, and practice.

I recently did 2 boat dives in Cozumel with a group of 4 people....one lady has been diving for over 15 years yet had the worst bouyancy control...her and her group were all over the reef....it was quite sad and frustrating.

Personally, I think it always boils down to the individual, not the instructor. YOU have to take responsibility for YOUR actions, YOUR diving skills, NOT your instructor. Your instructor shows you what you have to know, you demonstrate for your instructor that you can do what is required and that is all.....why can't you be certified in a short period of time?

All a c-card is, is just a little card that shows you did the skills and passed and therefore can dive. It doesn't say you are good at diving. I think what alot of you are forgetting is the real learning takes place after your are certified. In water experience far outweighs anything else.

If more people would take responsibility for their actions and really try to improve their skills, they would become better divers.

Ohh by the way, that lady who has been diving for 15 years...about 50 logged dives. I have been diving since August and have 80+ dives logged. Yes, I am tooting my own horn...I am really proud of where I am at right now. The divemasters in Cozumel left me alone in the water.....they could tell I knew what I was doing. It is really amazing at how much you can learn about another divers experience/skills without ever saying a word to them. Watching them suit up, and especially once in the water...their body movements in the water really speak volumes.

C-card in two weeks or two days....I dont think it matters.

 

[wch]

First let me say that I realize that statistics can be manipulated to prove just about any point. That said I would like to know how one would interpret these:

PADI issued a total of 3,3813254 certifications as of 1990
PADI issued a total of 10,151,841 certifications as of 2000
DAN reported 114 scuba deaths in 1990
DAN reported 91 scuba deaths in 2000

I think PADI would be a prime culprit in the "quickie course" category. They have tripled the number of PADI certified divers in a ten year span. One would expect the death rate to triple if instruction stayed the same, and to increase if instruction was dumbed down or hurried too quickly.

I got these numbers from PADI’s and DAN’s websites. The certification numbers are worldwide, the fatalities are for the US and Canada. I agree that the quick course or any basic open water course is a starting point for learning diving, but to make statements like this is not justified by the numbers.

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
No one can properly complete an OW class in 2 days. It is just not possible, I don't care who it is.

Standards are getting lower and lower among all the agencies to accomodate slackers who don't want to put the time in for proper training. As a result, a legion of unskilled divers will likely take to the water and promptly kill themselves. The agencies are also responsible because they encourage this behavior in order to make a quick buck.

Standards need to be raised and the classes need to be harder. "Quickie" classes should not be allowed under any circumstance.

I would be interested in any numbers that others could come up with correlating the number of certified divers and the number of injuries/deaths over a reasonable time span to the present.

Bill

 

[CuriousMe]

Al Mialkovsky once bubbled...

The "confined" water dive was the first dive, in the ocean of course.

The reason I asked is that it's my understanding that you need 4 confined water dives and 4 open water dives (at least for PADI). How was this requirment dealt with?

Peace,
Cathie

 

[kelpmermaid]

is not older than dirt, but she is a couple years older than me, and in better shape, for sure! I'm working on that, though....but the recovery period is longer than it used to be, if you know what I mean. Boats here often have a good drop, and that means climbing up the ladder with the tank, and for us smaller ladies, with the 50 extra lbs (or so) of stuff, it's a haul. Why did this cross my mind? Oh, pass the Advil!

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Well she had one confined dive and she was PADI certified. Are you certain about the number of confined dives? The one confined dive (ocean dive anyway) is pretty standard for PADI instructors here on Maui.

kelper some of the dive boats even have a dive elevator these days. Imagine that, you just swim up onto the platform and then sit down and wait for the ride. A divemaster will then assist you out of your gear.

 

[scubaroyster]

PADI requires 5 confined water dives & 4 OW dives to be certified.

Many instructors in vacation resort areas will run the confined water dives together (in order) to save time; but students have to exit the water after confined water dives 1 & 2. It is only recommended to exit and debrief after 3, 4, & 5. Confined water 4 also requires skin diver skills. This will normally break out this confined water dive, as well. Assembly and disassembly of the scuba unit requirements will also break up the dives.

I find it difficult to see how a PADI instructor can give the student the impression that they only did one confined water dive if they are following the standards.

Knowlege Review (classwork) and confined water training can be easily done in 10 hours with a good student in a private class of 1 or 2 students.

You also can't get away with less than 2 days to do the open water dives. PADI limits OW training dives to 3/day.

A two day class is possible if you have it set up like ScubaCrossing, but I don't think I would go for it in any kind of group class. Too many student skill variables.

 

[MikeS]

I was not aware that you needed to be certified to have a quickie. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if PADI created a specialty cert for it; $200 plus the manual.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

wch once bubbled...
First let me say that I realize that statistics can be manipulated to prove just about any point. That said I would like to know how one would interpret these:

PADI issued a total of 3,3813254 certifications as of 1990
PADI issued a total of 10,151,841 certifications as of 2000
DAN reported 114 scuba deaths in 1990
DAN reported 91 scuba deaths in 2000

I think PADI would be a prime culprit in the "quickie course" category. They have tripled the number of PADI certified divers in a ten year span. One would expect the death rate to triple if instruction stayed the same, and to increase if instruction was dumbed down or hurried too quickly.

I got these numbers from PADI’s and DAN’s websites. The certification numbers are worldwide, the fatalities are for the US and Canada. I agree that the quick course or any basic open water course is a starting point for learning diving, but to make statements like this is not justified by the numbers.



I would be interested in any numbers that others could come up with correlating the number of certified divers and the number of injuries/deaths over a reasonable time span to the present.

Bill

Here are some figures...

One diver died at Gilboa Quarry yesterday.

One last June.
A couple years ago there was a season where there was nine EMS responses. I was there to see two that year.

Last year there were only 3 or 4 and I was there for two of them.

Most have poor buoyancy control or not being able to handle a free flow seemingly at the root of the incedent.

95%+ of the divers I see are gragging the bottom, have poor trim and are incorrectly weighted.

1/2 hour after the park opens on a weekend vis drops to near ZERO

Dan says that 60something percent of the dives that result in injury involve buoyancy conreol problems according to DAN. Last year it was only 40something percent.

Mortality rate at Laguna Beach CA. 1+ per month (more than 12 per year) last I heard

IMO, most divers survive because they are diving under supervission. Turn them loose on their own and they don't do nearly as well.

 

[Big-t-2538]

Another issuee to hammer home Mike -

I know you have mentioned this 1000 times, but diving in Gilboa is way different than diving in many other placces. A ton of trining goes on up at that quarry....I can count on 3 fingers the number of times I have been up there and not involved with a class either as a student or helping with a class.

We have never taken students on the deep side...even the AOW students. I personally have only been over there one-time, and that was to check out the 80ft (which was at 85ft that day) platform. We had the notion of taking the 6 AOW guys over there for the deep dive, but concluded there is just too much risk if something happens equipment wise, or if someone misses the platform.

In my opinion there are a lot of people out there teaching that do not teach buoyuancy (it is evident every weekend I see a class at gilboa). When students are there, the viz is crap...there is no way around it...and it makes it a whole lot more difficult helping with classes on any give day up there. There are some instructors who go up there and do a good job. You can also tell their students from the "dive-packs" b/c their gear is under control and they aren't uncomfortable gettting in and out of the water. It is a night and day difference.