Do you actually intend to make money with your "pro" status?

[fisherdvm]

My brother in law gets better than 25 bucks an hour to be responsible for others as a nurse. Many DM's and instructors put more time in and perhaps as much money as he did for his nursing degree.

I think most LPN's have put in 2 years, and most RN's between 3 and 5 years of full time education. That's about $15000 to $100000 plus in tuition and forgone potential income.

A divemaster can accomplish his goal from OW in less than 3 weeks. Add another 2 to 3 weeks for OWSI. In term of full time study, that is about 2 to 3 months equivalent. From what I understand, there are zero to hero's program that can churn out an OWSI in less than 1 month. From what I understand, one can sit for the instructor's exam with only 60 dives (if like 10 or so of the dives before or after are going to be "educational dives). Eventhough most instructors went through their program part time, and bits by bits... Full time equivalent is likely less than 3 months.

Not to undermine the value of a scuba instructor's credential, but one can not compare it to the training and education a licensed practical nurse nor a registered nurse's degree and responsibility.

Yup, scuba instructor's are not paid enough. But it is the name of the game when you're churning out more instructor's than there is demand for them. Part of the "Going Pro" marketing scheme. More instructors, less pay, lower cost for OW instruction, and more divers.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I don't count those who go from zero to hero in a few weeks as pros. Those who can swipe a card to get a card have about as much respect from me as a dead possum. ANd while I may have gone a bit over the top in comparing them to nurses it is not that far off. I have invested well over 18K in courses and gear, not counting travel expenses(perhaps another 10K) and nearly four years, while maintaining another full time job. The studying I've done in areas related to diving has allowed me to become better as a DM and AI and soon Instructor. It helps me when taking human beings into an environment that is hostile to human life while relying on mechanical means to keep them and myself alive.

And I agree that it's a scheme. A money making scheme pure and simple. Sadly I fear that what is going to happen with all these zero to hero types is an increase in the amount of accidents as a result of less and less training. THe only bright spot is that perhaps some shyster will see this an an opportunity to sue the pants off PADI and get back to a more complete training model. Not this get em in the water as fast as possible crap. Lower cost for instruction means more instructors have to hurry students thru to keep up with the competition. More shortcuts, less classroom time, less pool time, more dead or hurt newbies.

 

[jbd]

I don't count those who go from zero to hero in a few weeks as pros. Those who can swipe a card to get a card have about as much respect from me as a dead possum. ANd while I may have gone a bit over the top in comparing them to nurses it is not that far off. I have invested well over 18K in courses and gear, not counting travel expenses(perhaps another 10K) and nearly four years, while maintaining another full time job. The studying I've done in areas related to diving has allowed me to become better as a DM and AI and soon Instructor. It helps me when taking human beings into an environment that is hostile to human life while relying on mechanical means to keep them and myself alive.

And I agree that it's a scheme. A money making scheme pure and simple. Sadly I fear that what is going to happen with all these zero to hero types is an increase in the amount of accidents as a result of less and less training. THe only bright spot is that perhaps some shyster will see this an an opportunity to sue the pants off PADI and get back to a more complete training model. Not this get em in the water as fast as possible crap. Lower cost for instruction means more instructors have to hurry students thru to keep up with the competition. More shortcuts, less classroom time, less pool time, more dead or hurt newbies.

Jim,

I agree with what you are saying especially regarding the issue of liability which is no different than when I was in the healthcare profession. But I doubt anyone will sucessfully sue any agency as the agencies have done a fantastic job of shifting full responsibility to the instructors and DM's and require that they carry liability insurance to practice in their respective roles.

One thing I don't like about the scuba liability vs the professional liability I had in healthcare, is that a person can sue me for something they do wrong after I have trained and certified them. This whole concept of liability takes this out of the realm of being a hobby or volunteer activity IMO.

 

[wreckchick]

I'm not talking about volunteering. I work for reduced pay to teach Boy Scouts and less privileged kids here on the island. I love showing the incoming generation the beauty of the sea so that they feel a responsibility to protect it.

I'm talking about the people that use their 'vacation' to work as a DM/instructor for free to be able to dive for free and potentially a spouse as well. They are taking what would be a paid shift away from me and my co-workers who are trying to make a living.

It hurts everyone to not expect to be paid for the work they do. You earned the rating, ask for the same pay as the "pros", you deserve it!

R

 

[fisherdvm]

the agencies have done a fantastic job of shifting full responsibility to the instructors and DM's and require that they carry liability insurance to practice in their respective roles.

I do not think an agency can shift full responsiblity to their instructors or DM's.

It is kinda of saying that an accredited medical or nursing school should be held liable for my errors in the practice of medicine.

If PADI gave you a list of 20 skills to teach, and they are the same 20 skills that NAUI, SSI, SDI, and other agencies teach they are off the hook.

If PADI recommended that 24 hours of instruction should be done prior to OW, and you chose to do it in 6 hours. They are off the hook if time and negligence to cover a skill in detail to a student is proven. I think it is ludicrous the hours that they "recommend" for each training program.... it greatly exceed what is done in the real world.

The bottom line is, they will only back you up or help you are following their guideline - that is not much to ask, is it??

I see instructor's error that could hurt students. Training basic skills in deep end of the pool off the bat. My son panicked and bolted from the deep end with one of the drill, and believe me, SSI would not back the instructor up if my son had a pumonary emboli. There is no requirement from SSI that he must teach basic skills in deep water right away, except to save time. There was no reason not to do it at the shallow end, at first; then proceed to the deep end, if it is a requirement of the agency. This is the way how I've seen every other instructor doing it since. Just remember, a college student died from a deep end drill about 2 years ago, and I will not name the agency - you can look it up.

As an instructor, or DM, you can chose to let your insurance lapse. There is no physical or legal way that an agency can "shift" responsibility to you. It is still your choice to carry or not carry liablity insurance. If you chose not to follow their guideline, it is your butt that is on the line.

I fax my liability insurance to my hospitals, and to the health insurance companies that I participated it. I could easily changed the PDF files yearly, and avoid paying $10,000 a year in liability insurance.... But who am I trying to fool? Just myself.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I love the social aspects of it, and seeing people succeed at something they find challenging. I love the commeraderie between the DM's, AI's and instructors. I love bbq'ing at the lake with 25 smiling people who just had one of the most memorable days of their life.

I'd do it all for free, but I'll take the equipment discounts and free air fills

 

[AzAtty]

I'm talking about the people that use their 'vacation' to work as a DM/instructor for free to be able to dive for free and potentially a spouse as well. They are taking what would be a paid shift away from me and my co-workers who are trying to make a living.

The vacationing DM/Instructor isn't doing it for free--the "dive for free" benefit is their compensation. And keep in mind that it isn't really "free" diving--the DM/Instructor still has to do the work, still takes on the liability, and still has to babysit. It's just another form of competition in the marketplace.

 

[wreckchick]

The vacationing DM/Instructor isn't doing it for free--the "dive for free" benefit is their compensation. And keep in mind that it isn't really "free" diving--the DM/Instructor still has to do the work, still takes on the liability, and still has to babysit. It's just another form of competition in the marketplace.

What it does is let the shop not pay for shifts for the regularly compensated workers so we end up sitting on the dock unpaid while a vacationer takes our shifts.

R

 

[Kingpatzer]

What it does is let the shop not pay for shifts for the regularly compensated workers so we end up sitting on the dock unpaid while a vacationer takes our shifts.

R

And?

Make yourself more valuable than the vacationer and that won't happen.

You are trying to make a buck, they are trying to save a buck. Neither purpose is more noble than the other. You aren't owed work you haven't yet performed. Better yet, buy your own boat and you can decide who can DM for you, and you'll lower the price of diving for vacationers at our location since there will be greater supply.

 

[AzAtty]

I can make precisely the same argument about any new lawyer who decides to set up shop in my town. And so can every doctor, accountant, engineer, restauranteur, mechanic, ditch digger, and dog groomer. As I said, it's called "competition," and the marketplace rewards those who compete effectively. If I want to make a buck performing legal services, I must either (a) provide better value, (b) provide a unique service, (c) develop goodwill which leads to repeat clients, or (d) curry a superior relationship with my referral sources so they'll send people to me instead of another lawyer.

I, personally, don't want to dive with a vacationing DM/Instructor. When I'm in a new location, I want to dive with someone familiar with the area; someone who can show me something new, or teach me something. I'm also the type who will pay for a private charter if it gives me options I wouldn't otherwise have. I and others like me may be your ideal clients. But how do we know that you are our ideal DM/Instructor/Dive Op unless you communicate it to us?

Another question: why does the shop choose the vacationer over the locals? If that choice is being made, then you must identify the shop's reason for the choice, and then combat it.