Do they owe us and explaination?

[Tom725]

I often read the Accidents thread. I sympathize and empathize with the victims and their families. We are a very large/small community and every loss is shared by us all.

Having said that, I also want to know what happened so I can take steps to prevent the problem. If it was a health problem, and many of the recent accidents appear to be that, then I would like to know, if for no other reason than it was not preventable by a change in technique or equipment.

If it was a skill or lack of skill, then I would like to know what mistake was made so I can avoid it and warn others.

If it was equipment, I would like to know why; was it the nature of that brand, was the equipment being used incorrectly, or was the equipment modified in some way that it should not have been.

I believe in most cases I have at least an idea of the problem from the reports. Health and inexperience seem to be the major contributors. But in some there seems to be no apparent issue and these incidents trouble me and make me want an explanation.

In the recent accident where both a guest of a dive resort and a dive master were killed on the same dive I have seen no explanation. Many of you have experience with this resort have justifiably jumped to defend their operation. But as a commercial dive operation who accepts divers regularly do they not owe the dive community an explanation of what happened?

I understand that investigations take time and I do not mean to single out any resort. I would like to know what happened and not as a voyeur but as party with an interested in the safety of my self and others.

My question is do they owe the dive community an explaination or am I alone in my concern?
:06:

 

[cdiver2]

I often read the Accidents thread. I sympathize and empathize with the victims and their families. We are a very large/small community and every loss is shared by us all.

Having said that, I also want to know what happened so I can take steps to prevent the problem. If it was a health problem, and many of the recent accidents appear to be that, then I would like to know, if for no other reason than it was not preventable by a change in technique or equipment.

If it was a skill or lack of skill, then I would like to know what mistake was made so I can avoid it and warn others.

If it was equipment, I would like to know why; was it the nature of that brand, was the equipment being used incorrectly, or was the equipment modified in some way that it should not have been.

I believe in most cases I have at least an idea of the problem from the reports. Health and inexperience seem to be the major contributors. But in some there seems to be no apparent issue and these incidents trouble me and make me want an explanation.

In the recent accident where both a guest of a dive resort and a dive master were killed on the same dive I have seen no explanation. Many of you have experience with this resort have justifiably jumped to defend their operation. But as a commercial dive operation who accepts divers regularly do they not owe the dive community an explanation of what happened?

I understand that investigations take time and I do not mean to single out any resort. I would like to know what happened and not as a voyeur but as party with an interested in the safety of my self and others.

My question is do they owe the dive community an explanation or am I alone in my concern?
:06:

Yes they do owe an explanation and therefore no you are not alone, that makes two of us.

 

[Grajan]

I am equally frustrated. If you read the special rules for this forum (below) almost all the threads break them thoroughly but, given the content, it would be a brave administrator who intervened.

Accident response appears to go through three phases:

1. The search for initial information
2. Condolences and support
3. Analysis and learning

Most of the forum is about 1 & 2, contrary to the intent, almost none addresses 3.

Do we need to restructure this forum to allow room for the emotion but also capture some learnings?

The purpose of this forum is the promotion of safe diving through accident analysis.
Accurate analysis of accidents and incidents that could easily have become accidents is essential to building lessons learned from which improved safety can flow. To foster the free exchange of information valuable to this process, the "manners" in this forum are much more tightly controlled than elsewhere on the board. In addition to the TOS:

(1) Events will be "scrubbed" of names. You may refer to articles or news releases already in the public domain, but the only name you may use in this forum is your own.
(2) No "blamestorming." Accident analysis does not "find fault" - it finds hazards - and how to reduce or eliminate them.
(3) No flaming, name calling or otherwise attacking other posters. You may attack ideas; you may not attack people.
(4) No trolling.
(5) Remember that you cannot read minds. Restrict comments to what happened and how to prevent it, without speculating on what someone else was thinking (or not). The only thoughts you are qualified to share are your own.

It is important for us as a community to assess and discuss diving accidents and incidents as a means of preventing them. However, once emotions are involved intelligent discussion becomes next to impossible. If the moderators feel that the discussion is getting out of hand in any thread they may close or remove the thread, with or without notice.

 

[Wijbrandus]

I think anytime a client dies, the business needs to be open with who, what, where, when, and why. In most cases, we never see the why. The why is never addressed. The story falls beneath a fusilade of condolences, and that's the end of it. Dead and buried.

While I care about any lost diver, there should be a lesson for us to learn. Until facts are released, all we know is that we've lost a community member. We don't know why, and there is no opportunity for someone else to correct themselves if they are making the same mistakes.

I think knowing why a diver is lost is the key to preventing similar losses in the future. This means we do have a need to know.

 

[Rick Inman]

The problem is that when explanations are not forthcoming (which they ofter are not), the Great Internet Speculations begin, including the Blame Game, which often results in people being slandered, or at the least, hurt by guesses and untruths. Family members who read these posts, business, DMs, buddies, and seemingly random people are often attacked publicly by people who have no more knowledge than what they read from other people with no direct knowledge.

I also want to know what happened, or what could have happened, or what might have happened. But I wouldn't show up to somebody's funeral and proclaim to his widow and children that their dead husband/father should have lost 25 pounds before he did that dive.

And sadly, that is what often results here.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look for answers that can help prevent further accidents. I'm just saying that there is a proper balance, and it is too often tipped into the should-not-do zone.

The authorities do not seem to resolve these things for us (they can't or won't), so we try to make up the answers on our own at the expense of the innocent.

Just my .02

Wish I had an answer...

 

[Diversion]

My question is do they owe the dive community an explaination or am I alone in my concern?
:06:

TOM725,

If you have been following the threads on this board and others, you have probably heard this already.

1. The investigation on a dive accident is largely out of the hands of the resort or operator. There are things being done and conclusions being made that they may not even be aware of.
2. Things take time. The incident you referred to happened less than 30 days ago.
3. The parties’ involved need to consider both humane and legal repercussions of any statements that are made for a long time to come.

Are far as being ‘owed’ anything - that is up to each of us as individuals. We accept diving as a sport with some risks. Sadly, there were diving deaths before this incident, and there have been some since. I for one am comfortable that pertinent facts from all of these incidents will find there way into the collective knowledge of the diving community. Misunderstandings and conjecture will only slow that benefit.

You are correct that many of us have been guests at the resort. I have spoken to or read posts from many – all are concerned, all have compassion for those involved, and every one will return to that resort as soon as the are able!

Are you alone in your concern? Not at all. Just have patience.

Dive safe and well!

 

[Bill51]

I think DAN does a pretty good job of detailing many diving accidents to the level possible without getting sucked into the litigation aspects that may result. I subscribe to the NTSB Reporter to get the final analysis on many aircraft crashes so I can hopefully avoid making the same mistakes, and that works with an insulated governmental agency doing the analysis and making the final cause determinations. It would not work in the dive community unless there is some mechanism established to protect the analyst from litigation by a manufacture, dive shop, or next of kin depending on how the blame was assigned.

 

[Henryville]

I have noticed this same thing. The community norm seems to be to use the forum mainly to express condolences.

There are more technically-oriented boards (like thedecostop) that attempt to do more analysis, but the sad truth is that in many of these accidents insufficient facts emerge to allow anything more than educated (and not-so-educated) speculation. A coroner states cause of death, drowning and it's case closed. Wow, we can't breath water.

Sheck Exley showed the way with his booklet "Basic Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival" and pioneered a number of practices that helped make cave diving (and recreational diving) safer.

We actually owe it to them (those who are lost) to learn from what happened and thereby salvage something positive from the tragedies that take their lives. Trouble is, the loved ones left behind find it painful to here others speculating on how their lost diver screwed up (or not.)

A workable solution could be to keep condolences in one place, analysis in another, and to try to keep the factual information flowing and the speculation down to a minimum.

NB - I intended this as a general repsonse to the issue, rather than a comment on the specific situation referenced in the beginning of the thread.

 

[Hank49]

I don't like talking about those things and I wouldn't want people talking about me or my family if it happened to me. Just stick with your good habit training, gear maintenance, dive plan etc etc.... What else can you do? Bad things happen. Move on....

 

[cdiver2]

I don't like talking about those things and I wouldn't want people talking about me or my family if it happened to me. Just stick with your good habit training, gear maintenance, dive plan etc etc.... What else can you do? Bad things happen. Move on....

Yes bad things happen car wrecks, do we say bad things happen and move on or do we find out why it happened and get traffic signs's traffick lights warning others of a dangerous condition.
If a aircraft fell out of the sky I think you would want to know why, if for no other reason than to know the airline is safe before you or your family flew on it. Then if it turns out to be pilot error his family has to deal with the publicity