Do I really need AOW for diving with charters going to sites for depth below 60'?

[Walter]

All of this was due to "Insurance regulations".

Most of the time you hear that, it's an excuse.

 

[DM Gary]

Walter that was one of the best posts I've read on SB.

I took AOW and felt I was rushed through the course by the LDS and instructor. I had 8 dives going into the course and knew as much about "advanced" diving coming out as I did going in. I became a good diver by logging dives and learning bouancy control, air consumption and navigation by trial and error.

Being certified to do something and being qualified are two very different things. I took OW through a juinor college. The class met once a week and took the better part of the semester and was taught by a great instructor. It might not be cost effective for the agencies, but I think this should be the standard. I think it would do a great service to the divers and their future buddies to train people how to dive not issue them a c-card. But I suppose all the jokers who get certified in two weekends and never dive outside of the check out dives are the ones who keep the agencies in business.

I would just do the class elan. It wasn't that expensive and you don't have to worry about it being a problem in the future.

 

[rrweather]

One dive on a wreck is not enough to teach you anything about wreck diving except to stay out of wrecks. If you want to learn anything about wrecks, take a wreck class, not AOW. Don't call your one wreck dive in AOW a "wreck specialty," it's nothing of the sort.

I never said one dive in AOW was considered a wreck specialty. There is a difference between doing a single dive in AOW class and a wreck specialty. I am sure you know this so I will assume you misunderstood me. I would go one step further and say that if you are serious about diving in wrecks, or any other environment that has increased danger or specific dangers you are unaware of, you seek more training than PADI includes in their SPECIALTIES <--- not a single dive for AOW or any other training.

Perhaps I came off as believing that AOW was the end all for classes--once you did AOW, you were set. I do not believe this. My argument all along is that skipping training because you think you are better off without it is foolish. In fact, all AOW did for me was show me how little I knew about diving outside of the OW environment. I knew after AOW that I needed more diving experience and more training. Perhaps I am the exception and most people are ready to handle any aspect of recreational diving after OW or AOW; I wasn't. By no means was I ready to penetrate caves, wrecks, or dive to 140 feet after AOW. AOW simply gives you the very basics for continuing training and it introduces you to other aspects of diving (with which most are not familiar) in a controlled environment. It also forces you to dive 5 more dives with an instructor.

Since you used diving deeper in your arguments I will argue my side. When someone completes OW training (assuming they follow the "rules") he or she has been to 60 feet. To achieve a certification that says you are ready to go deeper (90 for AOW) you are required to do a dive with an instructor to a deeper depth. When you are done, do you know everything there is to know about diving deeper? No. Should your training stop there? No. I have never argued that you are by some means an expert after a single dive. Do you know more than you did prior to the training dive? Hopefully. Did you get to complete the dive in a controlled environment? Yes, with an instructor. So I would argue that you are better off than when you started.

I know PADI (and the others) are ultimately a business trying to profit. This becomes obvious with all of PADI's plugs for their other classes and products throughout their videos and books. But to argue that money spent taking a class is wasted seems foolish. If this is how you feel, you should find a better instructor or a different agency to train with.

I don't have a lot of dives under my belt. That obviously limits my experience. I know that to gain experience, I must use a combination of training and diving to increase my overall knowledge level. I would have been STUPID to think that after my OW training, I had little else to learn from PADI or any other agency and that my money would have been better spent going on charter boats and hoping they didn't ask me for my card.

While the agencies are here to make money, I believe there is good training somewhere in all of them. Finding one that you feel trains you the best or makes you a better diver is a personal choice. The other option is to dive with a more experienced person and let him or her teach you. If you choose this option, don't be pissed off when an agency won't certify you without training you first. Your last option is to do no training, go out and dive in situations you haven't been trained for and hope you don't become a statistic. There is a reason many dive accidents involve people diving beyond their experience and training.

 

[Gombessa]

I know PADI (and the others) are ultimately a business trying to profit...

While the agencies are here to make money...

FYI, some agencies, including NAUI and GUE, are non-profit.

 

[rrweather]

FYI, some agencies, including NAUI and GUE, are non-profit.

True. They are still selling a service and exist by people paying for this service.

 

[IceIce]

Let's see.
On my AOW course, during deep dive, after reaching the initial depth, the instructor lost us. Water was murky, visibility suck, best still, their rental depth gauge stopped working. Both set, mine and buddy. Me and buddy communicated well, decided to abort and we did our safety stop etc by judging roughly how deep we were by looking at the amount of sunlight penetrated through the water. We didn't even do the underwater narcosist test, only spent less than half an hour 'deep'.

Navigation, the compass did not working properly. Again. Rental. We used our own method to recognize the surrounding.

Peak performance buoyancy, not taught.

Underwater naturalist, just listen what the instructor told me about what fish I saw down there.

Boat diving, hm.

Night dive, hm.

All by all, I didn't learn anything. I agree that rescue course teaches us great deal more, and dive master course, regardless you want to be a professional or not is a gem to finally get a grip about every basic important things we should have known.

But face it, resort and boat will ask for card, for their own sake. Understandable, if there is fatality in 100ft dive site and the victim only hold OW card, they will have to answer and it could jeopardize their business. It's formality, like in everywhere and everything.
You want to have smooth trip, you get it. But for knowledges and experiences, it's your wisdom to acquire them. Experiences will cost much more than card, you can also gain experience taking up the course, depends on how you face it.
For example, even though I didn't learn what I should learn during my AOW, at least I gain the experience of not panicking in murky water and lost situation, it's a great deal for me, and I got the card to ease my way through my other knowledge hunting and more underwater hours.

I do like that resort and boat usually make observation at check-out dive and judge your skill.
If you are holding dive master card, and behave like OW diver, they will treat you cautiously like ow, and vice versa.



.

 

[DaleC]

I'm always amazed at how some people misunderstand training.

a.) Find a good instructor. I would also suggest finding a good surgeon if you are being operated on and a good lawyer if you are being sued. If you can't be bothered to do that well... Caveat emptor

b.) Don't expect the instructor to "give" it to you. Learning is an active, not passive experience. Get off ones lazy a$$ and learn. The only thing you are "given" is opportunity and exposure to skills and situations that are beyond the OW level. That's all. No one is going to "make" you something. If you want to get something out of the course ask questions and make the instructor sweat.

c.) Completing the course doesn't mean you have arrived at the destination. You are not an "advanced diver". It just means you have been exposed to the basics needed to dive more challenging sites. It's just a license to learn.

Yes PADI sucks somewhat in its watered down form but it gets you in the water and diving and from there you can decide whether you just want to be a DM guided vacation diver (nothing wrong with it) or go on to get more meaningful training (to you). Why go on ceaselessly griping about what it isn't.
It's like being forever bitter after finding out that Santa isn't real.

 

[chayes]

Oh thanks a lot for that link, I have not found it while searching.... Thanks guys for your info... I think I will put it on hold and at most would probably get the "deep diver" specialty card for that purpose. for the price of the whole course I can probably do at least 6 double dive charters

Do the training...you'll find it worthwhile. It doesn't take long - most stores and operators can do it over a weekend...and it will alleviate your anxiety about getting kicked out of a dive...plus it's fun.

 

[chayes]

I never said one dive in AOW was considered a wreck specialty. There is a difference between doing a single dive in AOW class and a wreck specialty. I am sure you know this so I will assume you misunderstood me. I would go one step further and say that if you are serious about diving in wrecks, or any other environment that has increased danger or specific dangers you are unaware of, you seek more training than PADI includes in their SPECIALTIES <--- not a single dive for AOW or any other training.

Perhaps I came off as believing that AOW was the end all for classes--once you did AOW, you were set. I do not believe this. My argument all along is that skipping training because you think you are better off without it is foolish. In fact, all AOW did for me was show me how little I knew about diving outside of the OW environment. I knew after AOW that I needed more diving experience and more training. Perhaps I am the exception and most people are ready to handle any aspect of recreational diving after OW or AOW; I wasn't. By no means was I ready to penetrate caves, wrecks, or dive to 140 feet after AOW. AOW simply gives you the very basics for continuing training and it introduces you to other aspects of diving (with which most are not familiar) in a controlled environment. It also forces you to dive 5 more dives with an instructor.

Since you used diving deeper in your arguments I will argue my side. When someone completes OW training (assuming they follow the "rules") he or she has been to 60 feet. To achieve a certification that says you are ready to go deeper (90 for AOW) you are required to do a dive with an instructor to a deeper depth. When you are done, do you know everything there is to know about diving deeper? No. Should your training stop there? No. I have never argued that you are by some means an expert after a single dive. Do you know more than you did prior to the training dive? Hopefully. Did you get to complete the dive in a controlled environment? Yes, with an instructor. So I would argue that you are better off than when you started.

I know PADI (and the others) are ultimately a business trying to profit. This becomes obvious with all of PADI's plugs for their other classes and products throughout their videos and books. But to argue that money spent taking a class is wasted seems foolish. If this is how you feel, you should find a better instructor or a different agency to train with.

I don't have a lot of dives under my belt. That obviously limits my experience. I know that to gain experience, I must use a combination of training and diving to increase my overall knowledge level. I would have been STUPID to think that after my OW training, I had little else to learn from PADI or any other agency and that my money would have been better spent going on charter boats and hoping they didn't ask me for my card.

While the agencies are here to make money, I believe there is good training somewhere in all of them. Finding one that you feel trains you the best or makes you a better diver is a personal choice. The other option is to dive with a more experienced person and let him or her teach you. If you choose this option, don't be pissed off when an agency won't certify you without training you first. Your last option is to do no training, go out and dive in situations you haven't been trained for and hope you don't become a statistic. There is a reason many dive accidents involve people diving beyond their experience and training.

AOW IS a good introduction to the specialties available, and your reaction was really what was intended by that program (no matter the training agency). Get the additional training, find out what you like, then pursue those areas. As for me, give me a great wreck or a cave, or some place I can take some photos, and I am a happy diver!

 

[Walter]

I never said one dive in AOW was considered a wreck specialty.

No, you merely implied it. What you said was:

AOW is designed to teach you the basics of going deeper, navigating, night diving, buoyancy control, etc. so that you can dive in these situations safer. On top of safety, the classes teach you methods to get the most out of a specific dive. An example of this is the wreck specialty.

You did refer to a "wreck specialty" in AOW.

Since you used diving deeper in your arguments I will argue my side.

I referred to deep diving because some operators use a 60 ft limit to determine if they require an AOW certification. I then showed why it was silly at best and could be dangerous.

When someone completes OW training (assuming they follow the "rules") he or she has been to 60 feet.

Nope. You are not required to dive deeper than the minimum depth (with is either 15 or 20 feet, depending on agency) to get OW certified.

To achieve a certification that says you are ready to go deeper (90 for AOW) you are required to do a dive with an instructor to a deeper depth.

You are only required to dive to 60 feet for an AOW certification, not 90. You can go as deep as 100, but 60 meets the requirement.

Can AOW be an excellent class? Sure, but only if the instructor adds to the agency requirements. Some excellent instructors do. Most don't. Unless your instructor adds a great deal to what is required by the agencies AOW is a joke and not worth taking. I encourage everyone to take a good advanced class. My first recommendation is LA County's Advanced Diver Program. My second choice is SEI Diving's Advanced Plus. Any excellent instructor can also offer a self designed class that equals either of them.